Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)

I thank Senators for their contributions on this important matter. As many Members pointed out, there is great public disquiet at recent revelations regarding funding and procurement procedures at FÁS. Several investigations into these issues are ongoing and it is important that we place these matters in context.

On Thursday, 20 November 2008, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, was asked in a parliamentary question when she expected to receive the report commissioned from the Comptroller and Auditor General into the effectiveness of FÁS's financial management and control systems and whether, pending the receipt of that report, she would take action arising from allegations of financial irregularities. The Minister responded thus in the Dáil:

The Comptroller and Auditor General in his report on non-commercial semi-State bodies, published in May 2008, reviewed the issues raised in one specific FÁS internal audit report. I discussed this matter with the director general of FÁS and have expressed my concerns about the issues raised by both the Comptroller and Auditor General and the internal audit report, and in particular, the need to secure value for money in public expenditure. On my instruction, the Secretary General of my Department wrote to FÁS on 30 June 2008 seeking the formal assurance of the director general that the practices outlined in the audit reports of FÁS and the Comptroller and Auditor General had ceased and that adequate systems and controls were in place to prevent any recurrence and requesting details of the remedial actions taken by FÁS in respect of the issues raised by the audit reports, with quarterly progress reports on the implementation of the audit reports' recommendations. The director general replied on 1 July confirming that the unacceptable practices referred to in the audit reports had ceased. A further response was received at the end of October, which set out the progress being made on the issue of controls on procurement and the observance of the procurement policy of FÁS.

Following discussions with the chairman and director general, I decided that there should be an external investigation into the effectiveness of the financial management and control systems generally in place in FÁS, rather than be limited to aspects raised in the internal audit report that gave rise to the special report. The Comptroller and Auditor General has acceded to my request to consider doing such a review. My intention in requesting this review is to ensure that appropriate public procurement procedures exist to prevent or detect irregularities or wrongdoing and to examine and report on the activities of the FÁS corporate affairs area since 2000 to achieve reasonable assurance as to whether there were any occasions of potential fraud or irregularity in that area other than those already brought to light by the FÁS internal audit unit.

It is a matter for the Comptroller and Auditor General to determine the scope of his investigation. He has indicated that, in doing so, he will take into account the deliberations at the Committee of Public Accounts hearings on the FÁS element of his special report.

It is important to reiterate the points made by the Minister in view of the general perception that no action was taken. The Comptroller and Auditor General, who occupies a constitutionally independent position, acceded to the Minister's request to conduct an investigation. In the meantime, the Committee of Public Accounts had also initiated an investigation into these matters, and out of respect for the work of that important committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General undertook to finalise his terms of reference on foot of its investigation. That investigation is ongoing, with members of FÁS management appearing before meetings of the committee and co-operating with its work. Certain issues were raised by the committee in regard to correspondence and they have been clarified in the context of data protection and so on.

I urge all staff involved in all agencies to ensure that they receive value for money and that proper procurement procedures are in place. On foot of recent report findings, the Government has asked that all agencies ensure they receive value for money in the context of travel and other procurement procedures. These issues are being addressed.

Several Members raised concerns about aspects of my opening speech. My statement was presented to the Seanad on foot of issues raised not only by media reports but also, and just as importantly, by Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas and by the Committee of Public Accounts. I tried to respond as best I could to those issues. However, it would be irresponsible of me to comment on specific details of matters being investigated by the Garda Síochána and the Committee of Public Accounts. I will await the findings of the committee, after which the Comptroller and Auditor General will specify terms of reference for his investigation of all relevant issues.

The core mission of FÁS was raised. It is important I emphasise its core mission. It is to provide training for people who are unemployed and for people who are employed at lower skill levels. The national skills strategy is clear that we wish to ensure everyone is brought up one rung in the ladder in the context of skills and training. In fairness, FÁS has been delivering in that regard. It is of fundamental importance, given the challenges in the labour market and the rise in unemployment, that we do not make the mistakes that were made in the 1980s when there was a drift into long-term unemployment. FÁS has been proactive in ensuring courses are put in place. For example, it provides short modular courses for construction workers to train in energy conservation, insulation and installing energy conservation units in houses. FÁS is trying to provide more such programmes.

The agency responded to the problem of redundant apprentices quite quickly in allowing apprentices to proceed to their next off-the-job training programme. We must continue to ensure the construction industry assists in placing apprentices in on-the-job training. Without the co-operation of those who can provide training in the apprenticeship scheme, it will be difficult for apprentices to complete their courses.

FÁS was established under the Labour Services Act. That statute clearly lays out the membership of the board. This was voted on by the Oireachtas so it is established in law who should be appointed to the board. The statute clearly provides that there should be union and employer representatives. I support social partnership. It works at all levels of society and our economy. There were suggestions that there is something untoward in how this board is appointed. It is appointed under a statute passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas. This is not about cronyism but about complying with legislation that clearly states the composition of the board.

The science challenge programme was referred to. This programme is not just about space shuttles and rockets, as one Senator mentioned. It is primarily about providing high quality courses. It was pointed out in the skills strategy and in the review of the labour market that there would be a shortage of high-end fourth level graduates in the years ahead. The science challenge programme is about bio-medicine, biotechnology and nanotechnology. Approximately 90% of participants in the science challenge programme have gone on to complete doctorates, masters and other high degree courses. We should not dismiss this programme without knowing what it involves.

The FÁS accounts are published every year. There are also Estimates and Revised Estimates. There are 22,500 participants in community employment schemes run by FÁS. It also funds the job initiative programme. The schemes do remarkable work. I doubt there is a Senator or Deputy, be they on the Government or Opposition side of the Houses, who has not made representations to FÁS. Despite casual remarks made in the debate, I am definite that most representatives, regardless of their political party, are treated with the utmost respect and courtesy by FÁS personnel when representations are made. We all make representations. People approach me quite often, given my responsibilities, to make representations to FÁS on their behalf. When we make our representations, FÁS adjudicates on them and a decision is made. My experience of dealing with FÁS, especially in recent times, is that it provides wonderful training and courses across all sectors.

The community employment schemes are vital. Until quite recently, due to the low unemployment rate of 4.3%, there probably was not great movement of people through the schemes, but that will change as unemployment rises. Now the schemes are even more important in providing a buffer for people who find themselves drifting into long-term unemployment. They can participate in these schemes and make a valuable contribution to society. I visited St. Joseph's Foundation in Charleville recently where FÁS, working with the foundation and the vocational education committee, has set up a course for rehabilitative training for the workplace. It is a pilot project but it is a wonderful scheme. The people who work in FÁS are dedicated to ensuring people with disabilities can find a path into the workplace.

I know it is not intentional on the part of Senators but there appears to be a view that we should throw the lot out because of concerns raised about public procurement and travelling expenses. Fundamentally, FÁS is an effective organisation and it is needed now more than ever. As a Minister of State with responsibility for FÁS, training and so forth, I am aware of the concerns expressed by Senators, the Committee of Public Accounts and the public that there should be proper procedures and mechanisms in place to ensure we get value for money. With a tightening Exchequer, value for money is an essential prerequisite for spending. It is a fact, however, that this Government acted promptly when the issues in FÁS were brought to its attention. The answer to the parliamentary question on 20 November, to which I referred previously, clearly shows that, as did my opening speech.

I always listen to the views of Senators but we should not malign the work being done locally because of concerns raised in another area of FÁS. It is not intentional but there appears to be an attitude that we should get rid of the agency and move the people out because they are not doing good work. They are doing wonderful work across all parts of the labour market. We are carrying out a review of the programmes which will report in mid-2009. It is timely to carry out such a review to ensure the proper programmes are in place to deal with a changed labour market. There is little point in carrying out reviews, publishing them and implementing them when the unemployment rate is falling. We must carry out the review knowing where we stand in the context of unemployment to ensure we have the proper courses, training mechanisms and support services for people who find themselves unemployed.

I will convey the Senators' remarks to the Minister. The Committee of Public Accounts will continue its investigation over the next few weeks and report, while the Comptroller and Auditor General will also go into the matter with his defined terms of reference. When they report, we will do whatever is necessary to ensure there are procedures in place, not only in FÁS but across all State agencies, to yield value for money. No one on the Government side of the House could condone waste of taxpayers' money, but we must deal with the matter through the investigation initiated by the Minister earlier this year.