Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)

I am glad he is coming before the Committee of Public Accounts. I remember him saying that he broke no rules. This is the worry. If he broke no rules, the rules need to be changed. It reminds me of the interview by the former Commissioner, Mr. Pádraig Flynn, on "The Late, Late Show", when he spoke about how difficult it was for him to manage X number of houses and housekeepers. It shows how out of touch these people are. He went on to say he was right because he was not breaking the rules.

This spending is morally wrong but it is part of a system — it is systemic. What does it tell us about the system? It tells us this is a culture that exists at senior management level in the public service. How does this make good public servants, who this State badly needs, feel? It is all wrong. This behaviour needs to be cleaned up and, if necessary, cleaned out. Nothing is more likely to grow cynicism among the public than the abuse of money intended for the training of those who are currently unemployed, who in many respects are those most at risk due to their skillset.

I think of the drug rehabilitation project Senator Buttimer and I, with a number of other Senators, visited in the Liberties. The people involved, who were unemployable anywhere else, were learning to recycle clothes and going back to school in this work-based learning project supported by FÁS. It was really good work at ground level but it has been demeaned by this behaviour at the top. I learned in history that there were plebs and patricians — that was the caste system. It looks like we have a caste system in Ireland, of which we must get rid. We in Fine Gael will stick with this until we get rid of it.

I have some personal admiration for the Minister of State, particularly because he stays in the House for the entire debate. I expect to see him stand over this until the matter is finished for the good of the nation. If we do not act to change this culture, we further grow dishonesty and the view that this sick culture is the only way to get things done. It is a very poor example for young people. I have young people in my family and know this makes it very difficult for families to rear young people with any sense of morality and civic contribution. I just brought a tour of young people into the Dáil bar for soft drinks. One of those 15-year olds said to me, "Is the taxpayer paying for all this?" I was paying but this is the message they are getting, which sickens me. Why do young people go out and do wrong? It is because this is the example that is being passed on.

The other difficulty is that these actions are tarring everyone with the one brush, which is not fair. Actions like this do a disservice to good public servants, who are so needed. Such actions demean the valuable work done at ground level by FÁS in the community employment schemes. We are at the point where this brings into question the very existence of FÁS itself, and begs the question of whether this work should be done by other agencies such as regional institutes of technology, a suggestion which has also been put to me by the public.

Where do we go from here? It is clear things need to change. This type of behaviour would strongly suggest that State boards are flawed and have to be cleaned up and cleaned out. It is clear the way appointments are made is questionable and needs to change.