Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I very much concur with the points made by Senator Fitzgerald. For the record, I am someone who has defended the public service all my life, but that does not mean that I am opposed to public sector reform, rather I am completely and enthusiastically in favour of it. The problem is encapsulated in the example given by Senator Fitzgerald of cutting back on home-school liaison in a disadvantaged area. As far as the public is concerned, that is grand in that it is a cut in public service. That is how it will be interpreted by the media, even though everyone who looks at it will know it is a bad idea.

Overspend is as bad as underspend. Underspend is as bad as overspend. My problem with setting up "Bord Snip" is different from that of other people. My difficulty with it is that it will simply look at budgets and cut back. We need cross-cutting in this regard. For example, I have raised here on numerous occasions the whole question of the building section of the Department of Education and Science. It has caused hassle to Members on all sides in both Houses of the Oireachtas and in every community that is waiting for schools, not knowing how matters will work out. I do not understand why schools are not built by local authorities. I have never seen a county development plan to which the planning section of the Department of Education and Science has made a contribution.

In places such as Balbriggan, for instance, many houses have been built but there is no school. Nobody asked why that is the case. Savings could be made if local authorities built schools, because they are in touch with local needs. They are guardians of the county development plan and they will know what other public buildings are needed. If a school is built, a football pitch and a public library should be built beside it which the school and the local community can use. The planning section, architects etc. can be involved in that. That is what I mean by reform, where a public sector is developed that is leading edge, competitive, productive and shows the way. That is what it was always intended to be and nobody in my position could possibly speak against that.

However, time and again we have been presented with ridiculous cutbacks which are saving money this week but we are losing out in terms of quality. The public wants better education, health and crime fighting services etc., but it also wants cutbacks in the public sector. It is difficult to have both, especially without increasing taxation. However, it will not be achieved by setting up a board that will look at merely cutting back on budgets. It can be done by cross-cutting across the public sector, seeing where one initiative might help another, without duplication and where planning is an integral part of the exercise. However, I do not believe anybody is ready to do that. I am ready to engage with that.

These are the matters we should be discussing and we should put pressure on governments to make them respond. I ask everybody, when talking about the public sector, to think about their local teacher, nurse, garda, civil servant etc. who are demoralised at the moment by talk of being let down by senior people in FÁS and in other organisations, by which they have been embarrassed. That is the issue with which we need to deal. We need to distinguish between the service and those who misuse it.