David Norris (Independent)

I am grateful to my colleague, Senator Joe O'Toole, for giving me this time to speak. I welcome the Minister. She is a woman of exemplary courage but I just happen not to agree with her on a number of issues.

Like Senator O'Toole, I applaud universal access. There is a clear case that it saves money and one can test this against the improvement in health of elderly people. I am not convinced there is a queue of millionaires waiting to sit in doctors' waiting rooms and accident and emergency units.

There may be a few, however. I received a curious letter from a woman constituent to tell me she had been at dinner in one of the great clubs around St. Stephen's Green with some very sophisticated, nice people. They had their cellars of wine and all the rest, were delighted they had their medical cards and were very upset at them being taken away. Within a couple of days, the woman was out in one of the yacht clubs in Dún Laoghaire with a similar group of people. This is anecdotal evidence, however, and does not disprove the fact that although there may be mean-minded millionaires, the impact on the system is comparatively small.

I agree with universality. However, where I differ from my other left wing colleagues is that I believe one has to put in place the tax regime that would support universality before one has it. I do not believe the Minister, who has campaigned for lower taxes throughout her political career, would agree. I would opt for the Scandinavian model. If we want this kind of universal health care, which I do, we cannot introduce it before introducing the tax regime that will support it. I am very much in favour of doing that.

I am also in favour of means tests and have no difficulty whatever with them. However, if there is a means test going up, there has to be a parachute means test coming down so the most vulnerable are protected. That did not happen with the medical cards scheme as envisaged by the Government. I, too, was contacted by that gentleman whose wife had Alzheimer's. Clearly, he was saving the Exchequer money, yet he was being penalised for doing so. If he had washed his hands of his wife and stuck her in a home, we would be paying a lot more. Those kind of people need to be protected.

Politically, this was the most cack-handed thing I saw in my life. I was in that church on Westland Row. I thought the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, had great courage. They did not know him from a hole in the ground when he stood up but the minute Fianna Fáil was mentioned, a wave of palpable anger went through that church and he went pale.

People were not prepared for these cuts. While I do not agree with the medical card cuts, it is politically dangerous when a budget is beginning to unravel. The people should have been prepared properly by the highest political leaders in the land who should have outlined the specific clear financial dangers in which we are placed, reinforced this message realistically to the people and then made judicious cuts. One does not start with the elderly, the disabled and people in education. That is a political disaster.

The view of those who would like to support the Government in tackling this very difficult situation is reinforced when we see the dismantling of the Combat Poverty Agency, the Human Rights Commission, the Equality Authority and the Data Protection Commissioner, despite the very small savings, if any, which will result. This was clearly intended to cripple and muzzle the voice of the vulnerable and must also be reconsidered.

There is a difficult situation in which the budget is unravelling. I would support the Government if it was courageous, and I would do so to my own disadvantage. Although it is not popular with my constituency, I have said over the years that there is a clear argument which must be answered for considering the question of fees in third level education, for example. When resources are limited, they must be targeted at the most vulnerable. What the Government has done by doubling the capitation fee is to strike again at the most vulnerable. While I am all in favour of universality, the tax regime for this is not in place.

I will raise another issue while I have the Minister more or less captive. While some agencies such as the Equality Authority were targeted, the Competition Authority was left completely untouched. Although the Minister and I get on pretty well personally, this is one area where she and I have an ideological difference. I do not believe competition is universally to be held up as a positive ideal. I do not admire the work of the Competition Authority. Recently, the authority failed in its duty because it neglected a deadline by which it could have dealt properly with a major multinational and, as a result, it let it off the hook. It then went after those in Irish Equity, the vulnerable, who earn less than €7,500 from doing broadcast voice-overs. The authority claimed they could not collectively bargain through a trade union because they were a cartel. Cartels are big business; they are not poor, vulnerable people making the odd few bob out of doing a few voice-overs. That is why I am concerned that while the Combat Poverty Agency and the Equality Authority are attacked, the Competition Authority is left alone. I do not believe it has proved its value.

There are other areas where savings could be made and an audit should be conducted to identify them. I am concerned about an undue increase in the prescription of antibiotics for certain age groups over particular times in the year. This morning on the wireless this was reflected on by an entertaining Irish doctor from Canada. He said when he went to examine these patients, they would say they did not need an examining doctor but a prescribing doctor. Many antibiotics are being used for viral infections, respiratory illnesses and flus when they actually have no effect on them. It also has the effect of lessening their effectiveness which in turn strengthens other infections such as MRSA. Prescribing these medicines is a waste of money so it should be cut out rather than going after the elderly.

The removal of medical cards from the elderly was misplaced and badly handled politically. I met lovely and wonderful elderly people at the recent demonstration outside the Houses. That was grey power and since I am getting grey myself, I am pleased about it. Many of them said flattering things to me. When I asked them how many voted for Joe Higgins, when they most needed him, and how many voted for Fianna Fáil, there were few takers and a few guilty looks. We are all going to have to take some pain from the budget. If every interest group is able to unpick it and it starts to unravel, then the country will be in real trouble.