Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)

I am very grateful that the Senator would pay the tribute to me that I appear to be more fulsome in my apology. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, I am sure he was also quite fulsome. I just was not there to witness it.

Senator Alex White asked why we do not have an independent police authority as is the case in the UK. Given that we have created the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and the Garda Síochána inspectorate, and the other changes made in the Garda Síochána Act, this would only add another separate and interposing layer of accountability into the picture. I am trying to set this out fairly. We do not want to kill an organisation like the Garda Síochána by imposing an accountability paradigm that becomes almost stifling of initiative.

We must also accept that it is now de rigueur and au courant, if I may use two French phrases, for us to talk about Civil Service and public service reform. However, one must be extremely careful when one reforms an elemental part of our democracy, namely, the police force. Police forces have major operational responsibility and are not, what I would describe, arid and immutable administrative organisms. They are dynamic day-to-day operational organisations. One must be very careful in how one regulates such organisations. As I have experienced from my interactions with the Garda, it has a requirement to respond very quickly to particular evolving situations, be they criminal, public order or otherwise. That requires a more nuanced approach to reform and the issues surrounding accountability. I am more than aware of that given the security dimension of the Garda Síochána's work as the main custodian of the internal security of the State.

As a Minister of State working within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, one is from time to time included in information that must be handled sensitively and with a certain degree of respect for the kinds of operations involved. Given that individual officers, male and female, are putting their lives on the line, sometimes in undercover operations against drug criminals, sometimes working abroad in conjunction with other forces, one must be very sensitive in what one does in terms of those issues. I believe I have addressed Senator Alex White's issue in that regard. We did not want the extra layer of responsibility. Our force is a unified force whereas the UK has a series of regional forces with their own levels of accountability. Given that it is a much larger operation, it may have a requirement for an authority in that context.

The local joint policing committees will be very positive. While I am not sure how it operates in other local authority areas, I am aware how it operates in the one to which I am accountable in the sense that I operate in that territory, which is South Dublin County Council. Oireachtas Members are invited to become members of it. Sometimes in our zeal to reform and separate the functions of local and national politics, Oireachtas Members have been pushed out of the picture at local level because of the assiduous aspect of the local authority members guarding their own particular electoral and other bases. In my local authority area we are allowed to go. Obviously as a Minister of State, it would not be appropriate for me to attend. However, my constituency colleague, Deputy Charlie O'Connor, attends regularly. It is important for Oireachtas Members to involve themselves in the life of the district or local community policing fora that are now evolving and being set up. I am not sure of the approach being taken — perhaps some of the Members might enlighten me afterwards. Do different local authorities take a different view? I know South Dublin County Council encourages, invites and allows Oireachtas Members and local authority members to be present, which is very positive because we all have a contribution to make in raising genuine public concerns.

That is something I have seen changing in recent years regarding the Garda Síochána. Even ten years ago when I started out in public life one was seen to be almost out of order if one questioned the operations of the Garda locally. If one put down a challenge to it as to how it conducted its business or dealt with a situation, be it anti-social behaviour or otherwise, one was seen to be not really part of the gang in doing so. That has changed as a result of the Morris tribunal and the panoply of accountability measures and reforms introduced. It is now very easy for a public representative, either local authority or Oireachtas, to raise serious issues without being subject to a sort of fatwa from Garda sources suggesting that one was a troublemaker or anti-Garda. Legitimate complaints by public representatives are now entertained and dealt with in a more serious and appropriate manner by the force, which is a positive development.

Senator Alex White also asked why the Garda Síochána is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. As part of a general review of the Freedom of Information Act last year, the extension of the Act to the Garda Síochána was considered. That consideration involved an examination of all factors relevant to the governance, oversight and accountability of the Garda Síochána. It was decided it would not be extended to the Garda Síochána because at this time it would place an excessive administrative burden on the resources of the Garda Síochána as the force continues to discharge its challenging core duties. That reflects back to what I said earlier. One must be careful how one regulates an organisation of this kind and that one does not, in the classic sense, tie it up in knots, thus preventing it from doing its essential core activity.