Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I will not mind being interrupted if I mislead the House at any stage. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney. It is regrettable that he is being put into the bearna bhaoil. We have heard much that is incorrect. Níl mé ag cur i gcoinne an méid atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill. Caithfidh mé scéal amháin a insint. Nach mór bliain ó shin, bhí orm féin agus an iar-Aire Stáit, an Teachta Gallagher, dul go dtí an NCSE agus an Aire ag iarraidh go gcuirfí EPSEN ar fáil do cúpla leanbh i gceartlár dáilcheantar an Seanadóra. The Minister of State can check out that story. I will tell him just how cynical is the information he has given to the House. I do not blame him for this situation as he was only providing us the information given to him. Prior to the Minister of State taking up his new portfolio, he and I discussed special educational needs on many occasions down through the years.

The Minister of State spoke about an appeals process that was put in place. I will give just one example of how cynical this is as I do not have much time available. The Education for People with Special Educational Needs, EPSEN, Act requires that children be first assessed by an education psychologist. The system of assessment must follow a process, a pro forma and deal with items Nos, 1 to 10. The committee must be established to determine this system. This is the first stop and it has not yet been done. The system is put in place and an assessment is arranged with an education psychologist. The appeals process mentioned by the Minister of State is an appeal in respect of the psychologist's report, which report cannot be written. This is how cynical the previous Minister was in regard to this measure. I have spoken about this matter time and again in this House. However, I do not expect people to remember that. I could say a great deal on this matter, which is disgraceful.

Despite what the previous speaker said — I do not consider myself as the Opposition; I am an Independent — I visited schools in Navan, Monaghan, Cork, Clonmel and other places to explain to teachers all that is good about the EPSEN Act. I believed, and still believe, it is a superb proposal. It is the Act I would write myself if I got the chance. However, as Senator Prendergast said, the Act remains on a shelf and its implementation is being further deferred, which is disgraceful. I do not have time to speak further on that issue.

In terms of what is going on and in response to Senator Dan Boyle's question in regard to what the Opposition would do — the Minister of State can quote me on this to Government — I could sit down on my own, or with John Carr beside me, with the Minister for Education and Science and his officials and in half an hour give them all the cuts they want within the education budget as it stands in a budget-neutral way that would not affect class size, substitution cover or the high profile issues that will destroy schools i gceartlár dáilcheantar an Seanadóra. Bhí mé ag éisteacht inné le ionadaí as eagras na scoileanna Gaeltachta. Ba chóir don Seanadóir dul ag caint leo. They are appalled at how this proposal will affect small gaeltacht schools.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, having devastated the primary education system with a budget on which there was no consultation and having then left for China, stated we will approach this issue in partnership. Despite what Senator Boyle said, the education partners and Fine Gael — though I did not agree with its proposals — came up with various proposals and when they requested a meeting with the Minister to discuss them he said he could not meet with them until the end of the week following the debate on the matter in the Dáil. Yesterday, he spoke about the matter in NUI Cork and on radio. He stated on "Prime Time" last night that there will be no change, that he is sticking with what was decided and that the Government will not reverse the proposals. Ní bheidh aon chúlú ón méid atá molta agam ag an bpointe seo. The Minister will discuss the issue but will not make any change. What type of consultation is that? What confidence does this inspire in the schools around the country that are being devastated?

I will give another example. I hope my colleagues on the opposite side will listen to me and, if I say one thing that is wrong, interrupt me immediately as I would not want to mislead the House. The statement that there will be 200 fewer teachers next year is a fallacy and misleading information. There are a number of teachers in the current system. The plan is to have 200 fewer in the system next year. The increase in natural population enrolling in schools next year will require 800 extra teachers. The difference between the number of teachers that would be in the system after next September as opposed to what will be in the system if the Government forces through these cuts is 1,000. If I am wrong, I will sit down immediately. I look forward to being corrected by any Member on the opposite side. This is the kind of misleading information we are being given.

Senator Boyle left the House because he knows my views on these issues. I am too long at this game. The Minister of State should remember that education is my constituency. I am in this for the long haul and I will not put on the record comments over which I cannot stand. What I say is absolutely correct. It is not good to hear the Minister for Education and Science say teachers must take the medicine; of course, they will. The really difficult thing to accept is that there is nothing in this for teachers. This is not about salaries, posts or promotion, it is about their children, pupils, schools and their communities.

It is my responsibility to haunt every Member of the Government parties about the manner in which they are wrecking, undermining and destroying primary education by way of these measures. It is our responsibility to tell this story in our clinics, in the other House and in county councils throughout the country. This will not go away. What is happening outside the House tonight is not similar to what happened last week. The protest outside the House tonight is only the beginning of a long campaign which will continue. We have been through this many times. I will stand with the teachers, schools and boards of management.

A message needs to go back to the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, following his statement last night that this is a teachers' issue. I wish he had been in Buswells Hotel yesterday to see the full line up of all interests in primary education including gaelscoileanna, multi-denominational education, Church of Ireland management, Catholic school management, the INTO and various other groups. Bhí na heagrasaí Gaeltachta, gaelscolaíochta agus pátrúnachta ann. Bhí siad go léir ann. They all had the same message for Government: "You cannot do this to primary education."

This is not about increasing class sizes by one pupil. Schools must retain their numbers for a full year before they are entitled to extra teachers. In other words, a school with three or four teachers may well have to have classes increased by nine or ten pupils in order to get an extra teacher the following September. What is happening is crazy. I am only touching on issues. In terms of partnership and commitment, this measure is taking us backwards and I will tell the Minister of State why. He can give us a history lesson — I have no doubt he has a prepared script — on all that has happened since 1977. The reality is that returning us to the situation which prevailed in 2007 is not like going back one year. That might be the case in other European countries but it is returning us to the dark ages because we have been so far behind.

These are not my figures, my comparison or my views. This is what is written in Education at a Glance , the yearly statistics from the European Union in respect of the percentage of GNP we put into education. This is the only figure that counts in terms of comparing like with like. We were way behind and are going backwards again.