Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I am responding to the Senator rather than attacking him.

One thing I missed in the debate, except through hints, was an absence of a constructive alternative. Points were made about the different measures, including for example, that taxation and expenditure will cause pain. As Senator Butler said, that is true. The only alternative I heard was explicitly stated by Senator Harris and was implicit in one or two other contributions, particularly from Fine Gael Senators. The proposed alternative is to slash public service numbers and repudiate social partnership. This is what Deputy Varadkar argued with me in the late night debate yesterday. The Government is not taking that route because we value the contribution social partnership has made to the economy.

The public service accounts for only 10.5% of the workforce, a low figure by international standards. Even if one includes school and hospital employees, the figure increases to only 14.5%. While I welcome Senator Harris back in the House, I do not agree with his attack on what he described as the "dead hand" of the Civil Service.

I spent four days, from Friday until Monday when the Minister was formulating his budget, at the IMF-World Bank meeting in Washington. The world is facing a financial crisis, with only a few countries being relatively spared, while others have been extremely hard hit. As Senators will be aware, Ireland faced a critical situation a couple of weeks ago. In addition to the leadership given by the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance, the public servants concerned in the Central Bank and Department of Finance gave magnificent service to this country. Some people who speak in this House and some who write newspaper articles have no understanding of the quality and input of some of our senior public servants without whom this country would be a very different place. I sometimes think there is an ideological element involved.

Prior to being appointed a Minister of State, I had a debate with Senator Regan in a different context when the situation was more favourable about whether the Taosieach and Ministers deserved their salaries. We all have taken a 10% cut in our salaries. One of the questions I asked the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, was effectively how many people were better paid than the then Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern. It was about 13,000 and if there were half a dozen who came from the public sector, I would be surprised. This debate is sometimes put in the context that the public sector is on the pig's back and the private sector is hard-pressed.

Some of the financial problems in the world have come, as we all know, from overpaid executives in certain financial institutions in certain countries. We ought to have balance in this debate. Is it the case that a teacher who helps to produce a well rounded student is less valuable than a farmer who rears a bullock or a baker who produces a loaf of bread or a cake? Is it the case that somebody who drives a public service bus is less valuable than somebody who works for a private bus owner? Many generalisations are paid that are not particularly valid.

Public service reform is needed. It is promised. I do not dispute that.