Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I wish to pick up on the same points touched on yesterday and to which we attempted to get answers yesterday afternoon from the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, who was extraordinarily coy and reluctant to share information or views with us. One matter about which we know more now than previously is that the banks found it easier and cheaper to get credit yesterday. The Minister of State made the point yesterday that he was quoting the Taoiseach when he said the banks would be forced to pay a reasonable charge. To me the charge is clear; it is the difference between what the banks were paying for money yesterday and what they were paying for it the previous day or what they are paying for it today. That is the value they have got. That is the value the taxpayer has given them and the value they need to pay back to us for our covering their risk and liability and for allowing them to do their business and to trade in a way they were not able to a week or three days ago. We should be insistent on that approach.

No more than any kind of insurance policy, a clear excess clause should apply to the banks. It was my understanding that it was the Government's intention to apply one, but to date that has not been written into the legislation. If one crashes one's car, one is liable to cover the cost of the first few hundred euro of damage. In this situation, the first drawdown should be from the banks. That is a guarantee we must be given. It is a straightforward matter. It is no more than what would apply to one engaged in any commercial operation.

One issue not mentioned by the Government but raised by Fine Gael is the question of having a State representative on the banks' risks or credit committees. I agree with that idea, but I also believe other people should be represented on the banks' boards. The boards should be dissolved and reformed——