Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State to the Seanad. When I was elected to this House 16 years ago, one of the very first Bills I had to consider was a prisons Bill. I recall that I did not know what to do, since I had no experience in this area, having been involved in a different way of life before that. I decided to look for the customer in every Bill. For a health Bill, I would look to the well-being of the patient. In the case of an education Bill, I would look to the well-being of the student. When I came to the prison Bill, I had to reflect on what was best for society as a whole. I came to the conclusion very early on in this regard that the best interest of the prisoner was rehabilitation and this should be one of our objectives. A second objective should be to frame legislation that acts as a deterrent to others. If we are going to send someone to jail, its function is not just to rehabilitate but also to act as a deterrent. A third one, of course, is punishment, to ensure the prisoner thinks twice about what he or she has done.

I was very impressed to read in The Guardian yesterday about the Hassela reform centre in Sweden, which I had not heard of before. If I may, I would like to quote from the article, "Island of last resort", by Irish journalist, Maggie O'Kane. It states:

The most striking thing about the Hassela reform centre, apart from the apple blossom, the thick white candles burning on the breakfast tables and the smell of old wood from the ancient eaves of the dining room, is the silence. Sixty teenagers with criminal records, drug problems or a history of antisocial behaviour live here in Gotland, Sweden, in and around a beautiful wooden house with a conservatory stretching back into the garden. A trampoline sits on the lawn and a barbecue still charred from a recent feast is by the back door.

The "students", as they are called, are part of one of the world's most striking youth detention centres. They live in the main house or in smaller houses scattered throughout the village. Occasionally, there are "challenges" — the Irish boy, for example, who tried to hold up the post office with a knife, then went back to apologise — but for the most part, this small Swedish community accepts the 60 or so students who live in its midst as kids who need help to straighten themselves out.

I gather when I read further that we might even use this model in Ireland for the rehabilitation of young people. I mentioned this because I had been looking for the customer in every particular Bill and on reflection discovered that there were a number of different objectives to aim at.

One we missed out on at that stage, or at least I did not think of it until later, was the protection of our citizens. There are prisoners from whom the rest of society has to be protected. It is not enough to talk about prison as rehabilitation, a deterrent or punishment. It must also protect society from such prisoners and there is a danger that we only think of the soft rather than the hard options. We must ensure society is protected because there are prisoners in incarceration who are a danger to society. I do not know the answer to this.

I have listened carefully in the debate to arguments about the need for such a large prison versus the need to consider all the options as regards whether prisoners can have visitors when they live so far away from the jail. Will there be a bus service for prisoners' families to visit them? Is there a danger this could encourage the smuggling of drugs and mobile telephones into prisons? We have seen some of the real dangers in prisons where we have not had control in this area.

This is a challenge and one we cannot take lightly. There is a balance between rehabilitation — resolving the problems of those citizens who have decided to be criminals or fell into bad ways — and protecting members of society from those who are violent. There is no easy answer to this. This is a worthy debate to ensure we do not rush into decisions without giving proper attention to and recognising the various options in this area.