Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I have already congratulated the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, on his appointment and wish him well. I wish he had different business on hand today than that with which we are dealing. I declare an interest in that the proposed prison will effectively be in my back garden. My views are coloured as a consequence.

I have often been asked about my view on the prison. It is very simple; I have always said the prison is to be located in the wrong place. However, I never opposed it for a number of reasons, first because it was my brother in law who sold the site. This was his right and I do not object at all to his doing so. Second, the prison is to be in my own back garden and I do not like the idea of NIMBY politicians. Although I dislike the location of the site, the decision thereon was taken democratically by the Government. I will have to accept this if this Bill is passed. My neighbours are very upset over the proposed prison, as much because of the impact on their community as anything else.

Our vote on this Bill will not be a vote for or against the prison but a vote on the confirmation of the planning process. The process is quite flawed because the needs outlined in the Bill have not been met. The Minister of State said he listened to the views of local community representatives. In this regard, Senator McDonald referred to the name of the prison, and I thank her for that. I raised this issue four times and made the point that the community is very small. I do not know if Members understand there is no pub, shop or business community in Kilsallaghan. There is a riding centre, the Thornton Park Equestrian Centre, which tells me it is losing business. Residents' addresses include the names "Thornton" or "Kilsallaghan" and there are only 23 to 30 houses.

The Minister of State's colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Conor Lenihan, agreed with me that it is not unreasonable to change the name, as did the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern. I ask again today that the name be changed. I do not understand why the prison cannot be called "the new Mountjoy" until another name is chosen. That is the obvious thing to do and it would make sense because Thornton Hall is being preserved. One of the better aspects of this planning process is that Thornton Hall is being preserved and will be outside, rather than on, the prison site. Consequently, it makes no sense to use that name. In addition, this matter is important to local residents. However, although the Minister of State said that people are listening to residents, this constitutes an example in which they are listening but are doing nothing.

Amenities are another reason for concern. Were a planning authority to do what Members are doing at present, it would ask what benefits were coming back to the community. In previous speeches during recent years Ministers have stated that amenities would be made available in the locality. However, they were not. Ministers spoke of facilities such as playing fields, access to libraries, etc. However, nothing has been given back to a community that will be overwhelmed by this development.

The Minister of State should understand this area lacks footpaths. There are no footpaths in Kilsallaghan and people go for walks along the road. Although it is close to the city, this is a rural community. Will footpaths be provided? As local residents have asked for them, would it not have been possible to build a footpath or walk along the planted hedgerow area? Does that sound like an unreasonable demand from local people to the Minister of State? However, given they asked for something that has not come to pass, how can the Minister of State assert they are being listened to?

The question of the height of the wall has been raised. I have asked this simple question four times, namely, why is the wall 7.2 m high? That is as high as or slightly higher than, the wall in the Chamber. It will be located close to houses which have a surrounding landscape of fields at present. This will be a complete change. The view was the wall either should be lowered or moved back. I do not know the reason for the height except the Department decided on it. One of the flaws in this process is that the Department can decide without giving reasons. I guarantee the Minister of State that whatever responses his advisers are preparing for him at present, they will not provide him with an answer to this question. They will state that this is how matters always have been done, as though one should still be using quills. As I noted, the wall will be higher than the Berlin Wall.

I have to hand the planning specifications for a recently constructed prison in the United Kingdom, Ashford Prison. Unlike what has been done here, every aspect has been outlined in it, from drainage to everything else, including the size of the attenuation tanks to hold the water. On the proposed site, there will be 100 acres on which there no longer will be drainage. We already have floods every year in our area. The water no longer will drain through the land but will be collected. The Minister of State is good at maths and should work out 100 acres, or 4,840 slat cearnach an acra. He should work out how many cubic metres or gallons of water are involved, what size the tanks should be and where they should go. He will be informed that attenuation tanks will be used, which will let it off lightly. However, Senator de Búrca will understand from an environmental point of view that one still will not get that volume of water through the 20 in. pipes used in the locality at present. No one has explained such practical simple matters to the residents. Were one dealing with a local authority, one would not get away with it. That is what is wrong with this process.

As an aside, the overall wall height in the aforementioned Ashford Prison is 5.6 m. I am sure Senator de Búrca will be interested to learn that the prison's specifications stated it would be constructed with an exposed aggregate finish, for which a locally-won gravel was likely to be used and the final appearance would be agreed on, etc. The requisite detail is present. However, I cannot get answers to these simple questions, which simply is wrong. I considered other prison projects in what one might call less educated or civilised parts of the world. In Burma, the outside wall of Insein Prison is 20 ft. in height. In East Timor, the last prison built by the United Nations development programme has a perimeter fence that is 5.2 m high and so on. If I had sufficient time, I could cite other places in which the technology available to people nowadays makes such heights unnecessary.

Members should remember that inside this wall there will be a cordon sanitaire of approximately 30 m or 40 m. Consequently, it will not be a question simply of throwing drugs over the wall. One would be obliged to throw them over the 7.2 m wall and across a distance of a further 40 m. Thereafter, one would be obliged to hop up over another wall before someone could deal with them.

It is very difficult for local people to understand how this can be achieved. Of course there is local recognition and appreciation of the fact that the dedicated road mentioned by the Minister of State has been included. This constitutes a significant improvement. However, another issue in respect of the planning becomes clear if one looks at a map. The site is off the N2 and it has been stated that the R130 and other local minor roads, which are tiny, will not experience additional traffic. I asked the Minister, the next time he travelled from Dundalk, to try to drive to the new prison site without using some of these minor roads from Balbriggan, Malahide, Swords, Portmarnock or Portrane, where a certain number of prison officers probably will live. It cannot be done unless one travels down to the M50 and back out again. I make this point to the Minister of State as an example of how local people believe they are not being given full information.

On the prison planning map, little red dots, of which there are only 24 or 25, signify residences. I asked that each house should receive a visit from the prison authorities to explain what was happening. I asked that they would explain the height of the wall and whether there would be noise pollution or light pollution at night. I refer to the question of a Garda presence. I note the Minister of State did not mention the welcome proposal to build a new Garda station. I hope I am not to take from his failure to mention it in his speech that it has been dropped.

I refer to type of vegetation or shrubs. While there is no point in having screening for three months of the year, it is not necessary to have evergreens either. One could use evergreen oak, holm oak, blackthorn or beech, that is, trees that do not lose their leaves during the year. Moreover, they also are Irish planted trees and broadleafs, etc. Such issues must be discussed and implemented in order that screening is present throughout the year. These are simple matters.

I refer to local walks, footpaths and bridle paths. When I arrived there 30 years ago, ours was the first new house to be built in the sense that all the other houses were either farmhouses or had been built by the local authorities. Of the 23 houses, lest people think this is a rich and well-off community, more than half were built by local authorities. Three generations of the same families have lived in these houses. My family shared college apartments with people whose grandfather worked for my daughter's grandfather on a farm. This is an established local community. Any new houses have only been constructed in the past 20 years. There is no estate or anything like that.

Will traffic calming measures be put in place? The drainage needs should be explained to local people. I do not expect the Minister of State to have the answer in this regard. Will the authorities, as was promised previously, visit each house? People are worried about security. Will these houses receive a security upgrade? These are simple matters. As for local walks, footpaths and bridle paths, the only industry there is horse training. Arkle came from Kilsallaghan. Horses used to be broken in along the roads, including racehorses that finally finished up at Cheltenham and elsewhere. This no longer can be done.

I refer to another question to which I did not receive an answer. An enormous town is being built. My neighbours should be given special consideration and priority and there should be positive discrimination in their favour in respect of jobs or employment in the area. It is not too much to ask and it could be done easily to show a commitment to the local area.

I again ask that the Irish Prison Service should visit each local house. There are three local groups, namely, the concerned residents, the Rolestown-St. Margaret's Action Group and a third group who live where the new waste water treatment scheme is to be located and who have particular needs. All three groups should be kept in the loop. Moreover, some people are not part of such groups and should therefore have the same authority.

In his response, the Minister of State should tell me whether I sound unreasonable in anything I have sought. Do I sound unreasonable in respect of any issue that I have put before the Minister of State on behalf of local residents? How can the Irish Prison Service be a good neighbour if it is unable to deal with such simple things? People will be unable to go for walks because of the excessive traffic volume on the road. I will not go into the other issues. These are not major issues and they should be conceded to people generously and easily. I did not even mention sewage, with which the local authority must deal. There is no sewage treatment in Kilsallaghan and the local houses must be connected. I believe they also will receive a commitment in this regard.