Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I thank Senators Paschal Donohoe, John Ellis, Joe O'Toole, Ann Ormonde, Donie Cassidy, Dominic Hannigan, Frances Fitzgerald and all Senators for their contributions in what has been a very good debate. I am delighted the matter has been subject to a proper debate. Several Senators, especially Senator Hannigan, paid tribute to the role and importance of the Abbey and I do not believe anybody here questions those sentiments.

On the question of the proposed location, I repeat that the choice of location is a question that is now settled. One can naturally debate what might have been. There were difficulties with the Carlton site because of the value of property on O'Connell Street and there would, probably, only have been a narrow entrance through the back of the site. There would have been difficulties and constraints in creating the type of landmark building there that was mooted. There would also have been financial and economic considerations. Sometimes the ideal is the enemy of the good and, in any case, the decision has been made.

A point was made about transport. One consideration for theatres throughout the world is a preference for not having an underground system nearby, or noisy trams rumbling just outside the door, as they can be heard inside during the performance. The Luas is being constructed very close to, but not right on top of, the theatre site at George's Dock and it will be the ideal distance from it. There is also a train terminal there as well, so the new site will be very accessible.

The Peacock Theatre will, of course, be alongside the Abbey in the new building and there is no question of the new theatre being reduced to one performance space. I accept the Peacock provides scope for young writers and for more experimental writing. Along with playwrights, authors, artists and politicians, I have been panned by the Sunday Independent and, I daresay, many Senators here have been as well, but we must get beyond that.

With regard to timing, each stage of the process, including the invitation to tender stage, will have a timeframe. It is difficult to say exactly but I and, I am sure others, hope to see the project completed in some years' time. The process would take a minimum number of years in any case. As with the National Concert Hall these projects cannot be delivered overnight.

Senator Fitzgerald mentioned the number of Ministers involved and it reminds me of Horace's tag, Ars longa, vita brevis. Art endures, but life — especially political life — is short. There will, probably, be more than one senior and junior Minister involved before the new Abbey opens its doors. Within limits, the reason the site was chosen was to get on with the project, but at the same time it is important to get it right rather than rush it, because it will be there for a long time.

I take Senator Ellis's point about the importance of a spread of theatres throughout the country. There are several in County Tipperary as in County Leitrim and they make a significant contribution to the local area. There are many theatre groups in towns, but there are also performances that tour and it would be agreeable if this continued. In the old days, when the country was much poorer than now, companies often toured. Nowadays, this does not seem to happen which is a pity, especially with the availability of venues. There are some exceptions, for example the Opera Theatre Company tours throughout the country.

Regarding public transport, there seems to be no difficulty providing early morning trains and so on into Dublin, starting from their destination at 5.30 a.m. However, there seems to be greater difficulty providing public transport out of Dublin late at night. It would be easier for those living some distance from the capital, who do not necessarily want to drive long distances, to use the facilities available if late night public transport was provided.

The old Abbey site will of course be sold. No doubt it will be pretty valuable, depending on the state of the property market at the time of sale. This will help finance the project.

The new Abbey will be in State ownership, there is no doubt about that. The public private partnership will relate to the building and maintenance but not to the ownership of the theatre. The issue of governance was raised and as one of the Senators pointed out, it is mainly an issue of the past that has now been substantially rectified. I thank Senators for their support. We all want to see the project come to fruition. I do not have a problem with cultural facilities being spread in different locations around the city. The Gate Theatre, which is a very fine theatre, is just around the corner from O'Connell Street. It does not seem to me to be absolutely essential for the Abbey Theatre to be practically opposite it. Not all of us are familiar with the new part of the city that is being developed along the docks. I do not think people will have difficulty finding the new Abbey Theatre, particularly if it is close to a Luas stop. I would like people to be encouraged to travel to the new district of Dublin to get familiar with it. When I passed through the area in question yesterday, there did not seem to be any shortage of restaurants there. Senator Norris wrote to me about the evils of speculators and their effect on theatre sites, etc. If we bring theatre and art to the financial world, perhaps that will help to make a difference.