Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. The last time he was here it was in happier circumstances when we were planning the campaign and debating the issues involved. The late Charles Haughey was advised one time by a Senator how he had lost the election. The then Fianna Fáil leader said he would like to know how we would win the election. In this regard we must look to the future and be positive about the situation that has arisen. That we had two referenda on the Nice treaty gave the people clear example that it was possible there would be a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It was not possible to argue the case that we did not have a repeat of the Nice treaty referendum. That argument was not that strong.

As I said earlier today I certainly voted "No" in the first referendum on divorce and I also voted "No" in the second one. However, in the interim there was a change of view and a change of emphasis and it was accepted on the second occasion. When we applied for membership of the European Economic Community we were rejected at least once. The Minister of State will have the record on the matter. The French certainly kept us out at one time. However, we persisted. Seán Lemass initiated the application to the Common Market and we succeeded when the late Jack Lynch and the late Paddy Hillery, both fantastic members of the Fianna Fáil Party, signed our accession to the European Economic Community in 1973. We have been there for 35 years and it has been a great success story. I will not go through all that again.

The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, the Minister, Deputy Martin, the Taoiseach and everybody else did their very best to explain the situation. It is a very comprehensive and complicated treaty. In hindsight irrespective of the cost, it would have been worth circulating a clear version of the treaty. I hope that on the next occasion we will circulate a copy to every house. It is important that people cannot have that argument. That argument was made by Libertas, which then circulated a select number of copies to make the point that something was being hidden from the people and that was why it was not circulated. It was very effective propaganda.

In the final few days of the campaign, the Fianna Fáil Party published a document clarifying many of the issues. The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union is a wonderful document that took considerable negotiation. Many of the countries that now accept the treaty probably would not have accepted it at that point in time. The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union was used against the "Yes" campaign on the basis of the possibility, however remote, that at some stage the court in Luxembourg would accept the possibility of abortion. Under Article 6 of the Maastricht protocol we were exempt in that regard. They did not accept it. In churches in the region documents were circulated urging people to vote "No" because of that situation. The Pope was depicted in those documents as advocating a "No" vote, although he did not do so. I am sure he would be in favour of a "Yes" vote. When the Minister visited Roscommon, the Roscommon Hospital Action Committee had a document entitled "Support Roscommon Hospital, Vote 'No' to Lisbon." I met two dedicated Fianna Fáil supporters who voted "No" because they said they wanted to keep their hospital. There was nothing in the Lisbon treaty about that. Those are the kinds of issues that arose.

I wish the Taoiseach well tomorrow and on Friday in his meetings in Brussels. Time is on our side. Maybe when the Minister sums up he would outline that. This treaty was not to be implemented immediately. There was to be much discussion on the details. One point made to me during the campaign and at public meetings held by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs was the question of the commissionership. It was an issue. In discussions that will go on, countries that have no Commissioner should have a permanent representative as an observer at the Commission meetings. It would be useful to put across that point. While it is not possible or practical to renegotiate every clause, one can have protocols and derogations on certain issues that arise. I hope we will reflect on this issue in the next 12 to 18 months and hopefully return again when all the other 26 countries have ratified the treaty. We will then know exactly the situation. Nobody voted "No" because they were anti-Europe but because they felt they were pro-Europe.