Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)

I agree with Senator Bradford's outline of the situation surrounding the veto. There are probably two aspects to the veto, namely, the nature of the veto — Senator Doherty's second question — and how to use it tactically. The strong view expressed on threatening the use of the veto is that it undoubtedly has an impact of alienating prospective allies and supporters. When WTO negotiations began almost seven years ago, Ireland was pretty isolated on some of these issues. One of the important elements that has slowly entered the WTO debate in the interim is the question of food security. This has caused concern among a number of EU states, including ourselves. The impact on us has been that Ireland has gone from being close to isolation to having seven or eight allies. Now there are about 20 EU member states that share our concerns about food security. It is foolish and self-defeating to talk about using a veto when that many colleagues are supporting our position. I am frustrated that the WTO negotiations have not yet taken account of the dramatically changed circumstances on food security, but that will happen gradually.

Senator Bradford also asked a question about Article 188 and unanimity. Almost any article of any treaty is subject to some interpretation. In my view, the most reliable interpretation that we can put on it is that put by the Council legal services. Ultimately, that interpretation has to hold sway over my own or that of any other Member of the Houses. It certainly should hold sway over any interest group advocating a vote in one or other direction. The clear view of the Council legal services is that unanimity is required for the EU to agree to the WTO proposals in this instance and to the other areas of Article 188 that were mentioned by the Senator. I am strongly disposed to accepting the advice of the Council legal services rather than any other advice.

I will check if there is any additional material on this which I could send to Senator Doherty or anybody else with an interest in it, but the judgment call is best made by those who know best. In this instance, the people of the Council legal services are those who know best.

Senator Doherty said that our position in Council voting arrangements will be diminished if the Lisbon treaty is approved. It is infrequently the case that the qualified majority voting system is invoked. It will be twice as difficult under the new system, because it requires not just a majority of the votes, but also a majority of the states. In my view, the new formula considerably strengthens Ireland's position. At official and ministerial level, we have managed to engage with other countries and the existence of these allies has been of considerable benefit to us. As somebody who has attended 15 to 20 Council meetings at three different Councils, I believe that is a great strength and will benefit us after 12 June.

Senator Doherty asked when an agreement will be reached. It would be a major achievement if agreement is reached this year. There are many issues involved and as the food security issue comes to the forefront, Ireland's wish to include all of the areas, rather than isolate different areas will be essential to reaching any agreement.

The point was also made that Ministers have made mistakes on detail when questioned about the treaty. Anybody who has been in the Houses for a number of years will be aware that it is impossible to read and remember all the detail of any complex document. It is even more difficult when dealing with the EU, as the situation which originally pertained has been changed by each of the treaties that were passed. The position on the number of Commissioners no longer pertains, and it is difficult to remember the current situation sometimes.

With regard to the loss of a Commissioner for a term, the key consideration is that the Commission is more and more an EU Commission rather than a Commission representing individual states. That will be to Europe's benefit. The big states such as Germany, France and the UK, will be in exactly the same position as Ireland in respect of membership of the Commission.