Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)

It would be extremely difficult in most areas to establish an organisation that would have sufficient expertise to cover every eventuality the organisation might run into in the course of trying to deliver top quality, value for money services. If it were possible to do that, it would cost a fortune. One might want an expert on specific areas such as engineering, signalling, bus routes or whatever else. There would have to be a certain level of expertise in the DTA on that but there could be specific areas where one needs expertise for three or six months' work. If one has to go through a recruitment process, hire people full-time, give them salaries with pension rights and everything else, one has them for life after the specific work is finished.

I agree with Senator Donohoe that we should not go looking for consultants for everything, that we should have a certain amount of in-house expertise and experience available to us. However, I know from experience that it is not possible to cover all areas. The Senator was very measured so I do not refer to him directly, but much nonsense is spoken at various times about the amount of money spent on consultants and people ask why the Minister does not do certain jobs himself or ask his Secretary General or the chief executive to do it. It is not possible to retain all the expertise one needs in all areas, except at a high cost. It is easy to say €2 million was spent on consultancy here or €5 million there to bring forward recommendations and we should be able to do these jobs ourselves, but it is not possible. The Minister for Transport will have a fair amount of power of direction on policy and strategic issues on the DTA, but to have him or her interfering in commercial or management decisions at that level would not be a good use of public money, Ministers' time or anybody else's.

I am aware of the Senator's motivation for the amendment. However, this body will be subject to scrutiny by the Comptroller and Auditor General and also, therefore, by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Transport. This is sufficient to make sure the DTA does not go wild in appointing consultants that are not absolutely necessary.