Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

I regret that I must be brief, as I must answer parliamentary questions. I understand Senator Doherty's point on Border counties and will give him an assurance — the issue under discussion is not related to the Schengen Agreement. Rather, it relates to justice and home affairs. Our current position on the agreement is regrettable and relates to the British attitude to it. The last thing any Member wants is to see another border coming down. While I agree with the Senator's point, the issue is irrelevant.

I thank the Senator for discussing amendments Nos. 3 and 5 together. He is aware that I am under pressure. We cannot accept amendment No. 3 because requiring a referendum for each change would be to trespass on the people. The process would be debased and we would run the risk of the onset of referendum exhaustion. Subsection 13 provides for Ireland to choose which criminal justice or police co-operation measures to participate in on a case-by-case basis. There is not a large body of public opinion to the effect that we should not participate in bringing to a halt international criminality. For example, nobody would support those involved in specified criminal activities, such as the trafficking of humans or drugs, or make it easier for them. We have constantly supported practical EU anti-terrorism measures and concerted action against organised crime. That is the aim of this section of the treaty. It will move Europe forward in terms of combatting international criminality which states cannot address individually. The reason we took a prudent approach is that we have a different legal system. We will find out the actual position on conclusion of the three year review period we have inserted. I ask Senator Doherty to accept my assurance that this section does not focus on Schengen but on a matter on which I think we would agree, namely, that the EU should take concerted action against terrorism, cross-border crime, human and drug trafficking and money laundering. I may have misunderstand the Senator's colleague in the other House when this issue was being pressed because I was not aware he was focusing on Schengen.

Cuireadh an cheist: "Go bhfanfaidh na focail a thairgtear a scriosadh."