Seanad debates

Wednesday, 30 April 2008

Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2008: Second Stage.

 

7:00 pm

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)

I congratulate the Labour group on bringing forward this Bill. I must live in a different world from Senator Hanafin because the figures he gave clearly indicate a drop in the numbers using the service. The Labour Party Bill deals with the reasons the Senator outlined, namely, security, health, which is covered by personal data, defence and other issues. They are covered in the Bill and the record should reflect that. Whether people agree or disagree with them is another issue but the Bill is not found wanting in that area.

On the question of openness, transparency and accountability, I am a late covert in that respect. It could be because of the part of the country in which I was born and reared — we are "givish" about everything except information. I had to work my way around it. The commitment of the then Taoiseach, John Bruton, that his Government would operate behind a wall of glass gave me nightmares. The idea that the Government would not have an unspoken thought is not something that appealed to me and I never found the word "transparent" to be of great value. In the town where I was reared it was a word used to describe somebody who was not the "full shilling" in one way or another. Transparency is not a virtue that properly describes what I am trying to achieve and it does not describe the objective of the Bill.

Previous speakers clearly made the point about access to information for parliamentarians. Much of the information we need is not available to us. Parliamentarians should not have to make freedom of information requests but that is the only way we can operate. Unlike Senator Hanafin, I have never got a straight answer to a request. I have not used it on many occasions but I have found it very unsatisfactory. I have asked for simple information on a decision making process but did not get it.

I got two queries to my office today from two schools in different parts of the country. I cannot find out for them simple information on when they are likely to get the go-ahead to build their schools. In addition, I cannot explain to them the decision making process that will give them that decision. It is not often the exact data the people are requesting that is the problem, it is the process through which that information is made available. In the schools area, for example, there is something seriously wrong if I cannot explain to people why they are not getting information. People do not have to tell me the answer to my query but they should be able to tell me how we got to the point we are at and the process that was put in place. I cannot find out information about the process, never mind the outcome.

The Labour Party Bill deals clearly, succinctly and effectively with the whole question of the deliberative process, which is crucially important. That is the reason I would disagree with government operating behind a pane of glass. Government is entitled to have translucency at the very least to protect it when it is going through its decision-making process. That is covered in the Bill, and in fairness to the Labour Party that should be stated clearly.

It is important to highlight a number of issues, including the proposal that the High Court should ensure a decision of the Information Commissioner is put into operation and that people have to comply with it. It is daft that decisions can be taken and outcomes reached without the Information Commissioner insisting on them being implemented. There is a difficulty.

I sat on the committee with Senator Boyle when we dealt with this in 2003 and, in fairness to him, he led the charge about how bad the amendment was. He also led the charge in questioning the four Secretaries General of the various Departments dealing with the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance and the Public Service and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. He was very vocal and clear on the matter.

The reality is this is not about getting information on Cabinet decisions. I do not disagree with the idea of a charge in certain cases but it is how the charge is implemented. If we agree access to information is a central plank of democracy, we also agree there must be some cost and charge attaching to it. if we accept that as a principle we can consider implementation. If the implementation leads to one person putting in 400-odd various information requests in the course of a year, that is not what we were looking to do. We should try to catch that person. In the same way we could give a certain amount of slack before putting in place a charge. If people come back with a certain number of requests or a request that takes more than a certain number of hours, a charge could then kick in. That makes sense somewhere along the way but the idea of a charge for everybody at all times is unacceptable and goes against the spirit of the original legislation.

It also goes against the practice in other similar jurisdictions operating similar legislation. In terms of what we are trying to do and what the Labour Party is proposing, every one of the difficulties raised by the Government side have been anticipated. The Minister of State told us he does not believe they are necessary. It is a logical position, although I do not agree with it.

The Minister of State at least recognises that difficulties exist and has indicated that the operation of the Act is to be kept under continuous review. I do not know what that means exactly and the only review I am aware of is the review done on an annual basis by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, which looks at the extension of the Act to various new bodies, which is fair enough. I am not sure of the continuous review by the central policy unit of the Department and its outcome.

The Minister of State has indicated the Act is operating satisfactorily and if difficulties emerge in future which require legislative solutions, they can be addressed. Nobody disagrees with that but which one of the Labour Party proposals is unacceptable? I have not heard an answer to that, although the Minister of State considered each of them. Surely it is reasonable to allow a decision to be made on frivolous and vexatious applications. Surely also the proposals deal with the deliberative process and it is good that the High Court can be called upon to implement the proposals of the Information Commissioner.

If we can exempt issues relating to personal data, security, defence of the State, international relations and other issues, it would cover important issues. Surely it is good that if somebody deliberately falsifies records, they could be held responsible for a criminal offence.

Nobody has told me why these are bad ideas. These proposals have emanated from the Information Commissioner previously and I have discussed these with her on a number of occasions. I do not see why we cannot implement them.

It is appropriate that the Garda Síochána is included. It will be protected by issues of defence and security in the deliberative process. There is no reason normal pieces of information, dealing with the process of its work, administration of the Garda and various aspects of the issue, should not be included. The Garda would not oppose it as long as the provision would not be abused. We should put in place legislation to ensure it would not be abused, while at the same time allowing citizens general access to relevant information. That is a central plank of our democracy.

I will support the Bill and I compliment the Labour group for bringing it forward. It is a fine piece of legislation.

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