Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)

Every time there is a problem with a local issue, one is told it is caused by Dublin. When there have been national problems, Ministers, including those from the Fianna Fáil Party, have been heard to say, "Well, that is Europe for you." They have been saying it for 30 years. To some degree they have contributed to a feeling among a certain number of people that Europe is a negative thing. When people voted for the previous treaties, in many cases it was because there was a strong economic element in those treaties. Naturally, people will vote in their own interests. However, if one has been consistently knocking Europe by blaming it for environmental issues and ridiculous things such as straight bananas, a sizeable minority of people will have the perception that Europe is bad for them but that they must put up with it and, for as long as Europe is paying them, they do not mind. That is the reason the general public, for no apparent reason, does not take much heed of or is negative towards Europe.

There is also a lack of knowledge about Europe, and that applies to Members of the Oireachtas and members of local authorities. Many of us do not know the names of more than three or four MEPs from other countries, even if we know our MEPs. We do not understand what the European project is about. When one does not understand what the European project is about, it is incredibly easy to knock it and to allege that it is a negative force for the majority of people in this country. When we talk to the people perhaps we should begin by saying that we have used Europe. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has even said he voted against the Nice treaty the first time round because he had problems with Europe. Perhaps there is a need for Ministers to be honest and to say to the people that they may have misled them in regard to aspects of Europe. That is how we will get the people to vote for this treaty.

The strong economic arguments that have been made about previous treaties do not apply to this one, but one important role of this treaty is the Charter of Fundamental Rights for the citizens of Europe. This is one aspect of it that could be sold to the people. Europe has been very good in protecting the human rights of a great number of people in Ireland. The opportunity is always there for citizens of this country to take a case to the European Court of Justice. Many of them have been served extremely well in that court and that is what we must sell. Many of the most positive social policies implemented in this country have found their origins in Europe. That is how we will buy the people into this European project.

In reality, very little economic debate applies to this treaty. Lisbon is very much about tidying up a number of other treaties and making it little more manageable for the bureaucrats of Europe. That in itself is not a bad thing. It is no harm that we have a European treaty that tidies up a lot of the other work we are already doing in Europe. Many of the principles of the European project are based on previous treaties which have been passed in this country.

Essentially we have been good Europeans. We see the benefits to us and our self-interest has been served in many of the previous treaties. That is not a bad thing. We are also far more open-minded about what previous treaties have brought us. When we see all the other issues about our neutrality and the European armies that have been thrown into the argument in the past few years, we are big enough to see beyond them. It is interesting to observe the type of silly stuff that can become part of this debate.

Senator Doherty mentioned that Fine Gael was voting for tax harmonisation. I found the Bersani Report of 2005. It is fantastic that Senator Doherty has the time and the inclination to look up what Fine Gael MEPs are doing in Europe but his argument was that Fine Gael was looking for tax harmonisation. He quoted from a report that was published in December 2005. Fine Gael Members of the European Parliament voted last week in Strasbourg against the concept of tax harmonisation and we have voted against it consistently 15 times in the past couple of years. That is the type of information that Senator Doherty should be giving to the people. That would help to inform the debate in this country.

The European Parliament is working like a huge super parliament and many of the resolutions passed there carry no weight. Many of the things said there are as full of hot air as some of the debates in both the Seanad and the Dáil and they also carry no weight. The general concept of the European Parliament and its power do not intervene in the slightest with the sovereignty of the Dáil or with the people of this country. We should get that message across to them. The Irish have nothing to fear from Europe which will continue to work in the same way it has worked for the past 30 years. There will be, as there must be, changes in how it works. Europe has altered radically since we joined it in 1973 and its workings have altered to the same degree and yet I do not see the sky falling 30 years later, even as we discuss this treaty.

I say to the Minister that we should go out and give this to the people in the way they want it and talk about it in the way I have heard many contributors from the "Yes" side speak of it. It is a question and answer session for the people. The reason the treaty is so boring for the majority is that it is a housekeeping exercise. It wraps up many things.