Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I agree with what Senator Fitzgerald has just said. Perhaps the Leader was not aware of the situation. I have been invited, along with a number of colleagues, to meetings organised by Fine Gael on the Lisbon treaty. All the activity in my area has been organised by Fine Gael. I am totally disinterested in this issue but Fine Gael has pulled out all the stops and deserves credit for it.

A great deal of tosh has been uttered in the debate and people need to examine it. It is all fine and well for those who need a 150-page contract to buy a few acres of land to seek a simple document for us joining 27 countries in Europe. The notion that a simple document can be produced such as the Ten Commandments or the US Constitution is another way of inviting a million lawyers all over Europe to challenge us at every nip and turn. This must be a complex document and it is not drivel. Many pages are easily read but others are necessarily complex. The US Constitution only takes a few pages and it is very clear but it has given rise to court cases, constitutional challenges and constant reinterpretation. It is not a correct comparison and that case needs to be made publicly. It is completely incorrect for commentators to say the treaty is drivel. It is easily read by anybody who takes the trouble to go through it but it is hard going. It must be a complex document. The document cannot be written so that it can be read by a third class child as it concerns the most difficult and complex set of arrangements ever put together.

The new treaty encompasses the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is also an easily read document and which is very like the US Constitution. Whichever people are right and wrong, we should make the case. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has done good work but she should ask the following simple question of every farmer in Ireland: Do they think a representative of one island off the western seaboard of Europe would have greater clout at the World Trade Organisation than a representative of all of Europe? That is the issue and, therefore, our focus should be on supporters of farmers throughout Europe. There are many to make it work that way.

People in France and Holland voted against the draft constitution for reasons other than what was in it and we cannot allow that to happen with this treaty. Let us have a fair debate and people can make up their minds at the end of the day. It has nothing to do with the WTO or Commissioner Mandelson or anybody else. The treaty reduces the power and influence of people like Commissioner Mandelson, placing him on an equal footing with parliamentarians.