Shane Ross (Independent)

I thank Senator Quinn for sharing his time with me, particularly as I do not agree with a word he said, something of which he was perhaps unaware when he generously agreed to my request.

I see this as a kind of David and Goliath struggle, with the HSE on one side and the pharmacists on the other. An unequal battle is taking place because the weapons the pharmacists must use are very difficult, if not impossible, to exercise.

I agree with what Senator Corrigan said about the withdrawal of methadone services. That was a public relations mistake. The only weapon the pharmacists now have is either to withdraw or not withdraw their services. The HSE is using what is always a problem in the health service, namely, a type of commercial bludgeon with which to hit community workers.

We must recognise that pharmacists have two roles. They must make money but they must also be community workers. Somewhere in the middle stands the State, which says they must behave in a totally commercial way where they are community workers. We cannot expect people to do that when they are expected to do a duty for the State. It is the same weapon the nurses have when they threaten to go on strike. They cannot go on strike because the consequences of using that ultimate weapon are unthinkable. What happened in the methadone case was catastrophic and the pharmacists rightly pulled back from it immediately. If they now decide not to dispense certain medicines to medical card holders it will be a disaster, not just for the individuals concerned but for the pharmacists also because the support of public opinion will be lost.

In that situation the HSE holds all the cards. It is aware the pharmacists are, to some extent, fairly helpless and weak in the battle they are fighting. It is wrong for a State monolith like that to take on what is ultimately a weak group, bully them and use fairly tyrannical tactics to get its way.

I understand the solution being suggested by the pharmacists is a reasonable one. They are not as intransigent as the HSE. They say they are happy to go to independent arbitration. That is a reasonable position to put forward. They say they are prepared to examine the waste in the pharmaceutical area in the dispensing and the use of medicines. That is another area which should be examined. They even say they will make concessions on costs and perhaps even on margin if it is necessary but they say they do not want to be kicked around when they have nothing with which to fight. That is what is happening currently.

I do not accept the umbrella organisation the Minister has set up because to include in a group a former of IDA Ireland, the head of the Mater Private Hospital and a high profile member of the Financial Regulator's staff is putting official Ireland up front to make a decision which to some extent is predestined. Mr. Moran also happens to be chairman of the EBS. That may or may not qualify him for this particular post but it puts him in a certain category which might not necessarily be sympathetic to the pharmacists.

The Minister made two statements which were interesting. She said this was to be considered in the context of overall savings in the health service. That is a reasonable statement to make but Members of the Oireachtas would be aware that the Health Service Executive bombards us daily with propaganda. I do not know if I get it because I am a member of the press, a Member of the Oireachtas or both but the propaganda from the HSE never stops. There is a spinning war going on which is lethal but it reflects what is happening here. I understand the HSE has now appointed a parliamentary director. This morning I heard someone who is a director of something else in the HSE. It issues dozens of press releases on a regular basis. It has people in its public relations office spinning continuously——