David Norris (Independent)

I share the concern expressed by Senator Fitzgerald about the appalling tragedy in Drimnagh. That said, I know Drimnagh, which it is a very pleasant area and the people there are very decent. It was a corporation estate and many residents had the opportunity to buy their houses. They include a good friend of mine who made a beautiful job of the house in question. One must be careful not to tar an entire district of Dublin because it is a place in which I would be proud to live.

However, it is interesting that Senator Fitzgerald raised the question of parenting, as did many people who spoke about the killings on the radio today. Among the points made about some of the gangs of youths that go around was that decent people are afraid to approach the parents involved because they are even more abusive and have threatened to let the children do precisely what they want. This puts in context the very useful debate held in the House last night, in which one or two Members suggested that the only possible family model was the heterosexual family model, comprising a man and a woman. While this model can be very good when it works, no one has suggested that gay parents were involved in any of these cases. Hence it is not universally true that the panacea is to have a man and a woman as there are highly dysfunctional families that let down the whole of society. Moreover, if one considers, for example, the question of the Kilkenny incest case or sexual abuse of children in general, it happens predominately in the home and is perpetrated by one of the parents or a sibling. One must bear this in mind when using children to attack gay couples. While I am sure there can be bad ones — I do not know of any — such couples are obliged to choose and sometimes even to fight to keep their own children. I know of no gay family that has a reproach of this kind on it.

Another interesting point to arise from this case is that apparently, the children, young people or whatever, were congregating in an attempt to get drink. They asked the Polish people to buy them drink and it was when the latter refused that they were so savagely and brutally murdered. In common with many other Members — I do not claim a unique role in this regard — I have raised the manner in which licences have been distributed throughout the country. Every huckster's shop is up to the ceiling in wine, gin, beer and everything. When I said this on television one of the judges sued RTE, which of course collapsed like a paper bag and paid up. Members should have a further debate on this subject. I do not attack the family, which is an excellent institution. However, Members must recognise its blemishes and must not use children as a weapon against gay people.

I wish to raise a matter that has appeared in the Phoenix magazine and I have been contacted by the persons involved. Two articles were published that appear to set out to smear someone who appears to be a very fine man. I refer to Mr. Michael Semple, a diplomatic representative of some kind in Afghanistan, who was paid through the overseas development aid fund of the Department of Foreign Affairs. Apparently, he now is being hung out to dry, abusive articles are being written about him and both he and his family are highly distressed. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should come before the House to make a statement outlining Mr. Semple's work. This man, unlike the Americans, actually speaks the local language, loves the Afghan people and has used his understanding of the conflict in Northern Ireland to help to resolve it.

This differs greatly from an occasion some years ago when I was invited by the American representative to a lunchtime talk to convert me on the war in Iraq. I met their expert on Iraq and when I asked him when he was last there, he replied he had never been to Iraq. I then suggested that he kept in touch through reading the local newspapers but he replied he did not, as he could not read or speak Arabic. It is no surprise the Americans got themselves into trouble. The case to which I refer involves a talented man who understands the situation and who may have been talking to some elements of the Taliban, which is a highly complex organisation. One must talk to one's enemies to achieve progress. The Minister should come before the House to defend this man who does not have the money to take on the press in an expensive libel case.