Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I still have not heard the answer to the question I raised. What percentage of trafficked people would the Minister of State guesstimate are not trafficked for the purposes of prostitution? That is a crucial issue. That is the relevant aspect of the issue and that figure would answer Senator Mary White's point as to why the issue of prostitution is central to this issue. The words I used were "inextricably linked". All the cases about which we read are of people trafficked for the purposes of prostitution.

Section 7 of the 1993 Act, to which the Minister of State referred, states, "A person who in a street or public place solicits or importunes another person ...". I am not clear as to what the words "solicits or importunes" mean in that context and I accept that, but I could establish that quickly in an hour. However, I am certain that a public place, even in the way it is defined in that Act as a place to which the public have access, does not cover the places in which prostitution takes place off the street.

Two issues have arisen. As the Minister of State said, he referred to the 1993 Act in responding to the issue I raised. Perhaps that is the way to deal with it. I raise the question of what percentage of people trafficked are not trafficked for the purposes of prostitution. Is it not simple to change beyond reasonable doubt what is intended by section 7 of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993? If, as the Minister of State said, it was intended to mean the user of prostitutes, then we should make that clear. There would then be nothing new to worry Senator White or anybody else, as it would be already included in legislation. I ask the Minister of State to answer me this one conundrum. Senator Mullen's amendment proposes to make the user of prostitutes guilty of an offence. There is no argument on this point. In the Minister of State's response to this proposal he made two points. He said this is covered under section 7 of the 1993 Act and he also stated that to do what Senator Mullen proposes would require widespread consultation. I ask him to riddle me those two things. Why is widespread consultation required to criminalise something which the Minister of State informs us is already a criminal offence? This does not make sense. We either deal with this here and now or introduce something similar afterwards, but we cannot have it both ways. It is either an offence or it is not. If it is an offence then widespread consultation is hardly necessary on something which, as Senator Lisa McDonald said, if asked, 90% of the women of Ireland would be in agreement with us.