Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the amendment proposed by the Minister of State on behalf of the Government. It goes a long way to allaying my fears regarding concerns that unfortunate women are trafficked and led into a life of prostitution or sexual exploitation. It may not necessarily be prostitution as the exploitation could take the form of other services. There is the view that those who use such people, primarily men although not all the time, are not subject to the full rigours of the law. There is also the view that this area has not been addressed fully.

I understand there appears to be sufficient legislation to take to task and prosecute a person availing of services or using prostitutes. Leaving aside trafficking, prostitutes have been preyed on and used. From my knowledge of the law in this regard, there has historically been a tendency to blame the unfortunate women or prostitutes — it may not necessarily be a woman and could be a male child that is used and abused — and prosecute them in court for soliciting clients and so on. That is the perception of many women groups, which I can understand. Sweden has taken a more robust approach to dealing with the issue by introducing specific legislation to target the people who use, abuse and avail of trafficked women in prostitution, lap dancing clubs or some other type of call-out cases.

I applaud the Minister of State, his officials and the Government for considering the matter sympathetically. This is the first opportunity we have had to deal with such a Bill and it is the first opportunity in a long time that we have had such an open debate, both in the other House and here. As Senator Alex White noted, there is cross-party agreement on the matter and we want to get the legislation as near to perfect as we can. Legislation will always change.

In his response, the Minister of State might further allay our concerns. The Government amendments have come a long way in easing my mind but are there administrative sanctions involved? What do other European countries do in regard to the people who avail of these services, abuse women and take advantage of them? It is appalling to have women trafficked but it is something else to put them into slavery. I will not go into that because I spoke on it with some vigour on Second Stage.

There is clearly a serious concern about this matter. It could be a moral question. Historically, prostitution is one of the oldest trades, almost going back to prehistoric times, before the Roman Empire and before we heard of the stoics and the sophists in Greek philosophy and mythology. It is my perception that women have historically suffered.

The Bill specifically deals with people who are trafficked, be they women, children or young boys. Historically there is a perception that the woman is punished for the crime, which she would normally commit for financial reasons or to deal with a drug habit. In the case of trafficked women there is no choice, as the women are brought here and more or less led into slavery. They would then be abused or taken advantage of for financial gain. In many cases this would be done by serious criminals operating underground, who would also be involved in the drug trade and all sorts of illegal activity.

We should be realistic as the trafficking of women has gone totally underground. It is like a secret operation, as phone numbers would be listed in secret places. It is a cloak and dagger activity. If it was the case that these trafficked women were walking the streets, they would be seen and could in some way be protected by the Garda or others.

In these cases, the specific people who would be affected by this Bill are usually held under lock and key against their will in apartments or back rooms in some houses, where they have no freedom. We must be very clear that the people who use these services should subject to all the moral opprobrium that is necessary and the rigours of the law. That is the reason I am concerned.

I must take due regard of the amendments. The Minister of State might refer to the points I have made. We must get this legislation as close to perfect as possible. There is no utopian legislation and although we sometimes say the law is an ass, we do our best to get it right. Sometimes we make mistakes. I commend the Minister of State for moving legislation that will be as close as possible to what we all consider to be the ideal solution.