Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)

Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach éinne a labhair i rith na díospóireachta seo. Tá sé an-tábhachtach dom tuaraimí na Seanadóirí a chloisint. Mar is eol don Teach, beidh mé ag bualadh le bainisteóirí contae agus cathrach san athbhliain. Buailfidh mé chomh maith le cathaoirligh, cléirigh baile agus iad siúd atá i bhfeidhm ar na comhairlí baile, os rud é go bhfuil ról lárnach acu i gcur chun cinn na margaí feirme.

I will answer the specific questions asked by Senators and then I will deal with other questions raised in a more general way. I will try to do justice to these questions while not keeping anyone too long. I could talk about this for much longer than I have time to, so I will try to curtail what I have to say in the interests of practicality.

Senator O'Sullivan mentioned the so-called olive factor. This is something which has led to a certain amount of cynicism about the term "farmers' market" and suggests that it is being very loosely interpreted in certain areas, almost to the point of being meaningless. With that in mind, I have asked my officials, whom I thank for being here today, to contact with the UK body FARMA when organising the forum with the local authorities in January. This body has about ten years' experience in organising farmers' markets in the interests of local producers and local consumers, thereby ensuring development of the local food economy.

Depending on the circumstances of each area — there is no template that fits every area — a radius is defined around each market and producers from that area sell their products. I am not sure whether the defined area in this country will include the 32 counties or will be more local, but we will have to consider this based on the reality. In the UK, the radius is often 30 miles. That allows for a certain amount of scope for producers to attend different markets whose areas overlap, but it also means that markets are clearly defined as indigenous markets which are distinctive and reflect the character of their areas — the smells, the tastes, the products and the personalities. This will certainly address the olive factor.

The Casual Trading Act was mentioned. As an Opposition Deputy I was very aware of the need to avoid a loss of historic trading rights because they are, in many ways, the basis of our market towns and the culture of food production. Many of these rights are now preserved because they were exercised before the 1 May deadline. It is for the local authorities to consider maturely how they can balance the needs of retailers — which are critical, as I will be the first to admit, because they are the people paying the rates, without which our local authorities would be very impoverished — with those of the markets. There are many local factors which are not addressed by retailers. There can be a synergy between farmers' markets and the wider retail sector.

I will address Senator McFadden's question in the more general part of my remarks because the area of regulations is quite large. That is why I am consulting various bodies to ensure we get the balance right so that we can introduce necessary legislation without making it too onerous.

I agree with Senators Bradford, O'Sullivan and others who mentioned the important issue, in which I am interested, of the need to ensure our producers are not disadvantaged by imports that can avoid the rigorous regulations to which we must adhere. The Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is dealing with this today. I do not want to double up on work being done by the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, as she is the person attending the Council of Ministers and dealing most directly with the Commission. I hope she is impressing upon the Commission the need for our beef industry, in particular, to be given fair treatment and not disadvantaged. I realise there is a parallel process and as Senator O'Sullivan said, it is to be hoped our timetables will not conflict in this way next time. This is an important issue which is different from that being dealt with at the committee and is valid in its own right. I take the points that were made.

Senator Prendergast mentioned that not all farmers' markets must be organic. I made that clear in my statement. They are not exclusively organic or non-organic. There are different stall holders with products which may or may not be organic. That is the diversity which adds to the attractiveness of farmers' markets. It is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

I accept Senator Bradford's point about a green labelling system. There is much debate in the EU about labelling. There are certain regulations that require, for example, that State money is not used to promote a Guaranteed Irish-type scheme. We might argue about this or disagree with it but it is unfortunately the legal situation. Private money can be used for such a scheme and for this reason the Restaurants Association of Ireland and other bodies provide labels that refer to produce as coming from Ireland. We encourage this but we cannot use taxpayers' money in a way that would be breaking the law. I will refer to this again later as other Senators referred to it as well.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to the balance between markets and the retail sector. In this country the balance is very much in favour of the retail sector for food. Of all fresh produce sold, 80% is through the large multiples. That is a disproportionately large percentage compared with other European countries. It is evident to anyone who has visited Italy or France that the market culture there is well established. In the case of France, it goes back to Napoleonic times. Markets are large movers of food and not a small element of the overall market as in this country. Thus, there is room for more selling through local shops and markets while maintaining a vibrant retail sector, especially large supermarkets. In France and Italy supermarket chains such as Coop Italia, Carrefour and Monoprix manage to co-exist with a vibrant market culture.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to abattoirs, as did Senator O'Toole, who wants a system of State abattoirs. I mentioned EU regulations before, but we must take cognisance of the potential as well as the limitations of the rules under which we operate as an EU member state. At the moment I am considering ways of supporting local abattoir development in a practical way and ensuring abattoirs are viable. It is quite costly to establish an abattoir. I recently visited one in Wexford and in discussions with the owner we reckoned the cost of getting one up and running was €250,000. One would need to have a guaranteed throughput, long-term viability, and a friendly bank manager. The realities for local abattoirs require us to put our thoughts together to ensure their continued viability and the broadening of their networks.

I am aware of the situation referred to by Senator O'Toole. I recently visited a farm in my constituency at which harvesting was in full swing. Its 180 acres of sprouts were to be harvested before Christmas, the main time of year at which sprouts are sold, but there was a great deal of waste because the vegetable's size was specified. It could not be too large or too small and it needed to be the right colour. If it was too white, it was rejected. These specifications come not from Brussels but from the large multiples, which are of the researched opinion that consumers buy a product only if it is a certain colour and size. The multiples' requirements are so narrow that there is a significant amount of wastage. As Senator O'Toole stated, therein lies the potential for the local market.

Food habits change, as witnessed in respect of potatoes, to which Senator Carty referred in a nostalgic fashion. The market for what were reject potatoes but that are now called, affectionately and successfully, "baby potatoes" has grown considerably and quickly. We reject the sweetest and most attractive size of sprouts, namely, the sprouts at the top of the stems. They and those at the bottom go to waste while the perfectly correct sizes in the middle of the stems are sold. One grows a three foot tall plant, but the only marketable part is a certain amount in the middle. In many ways, this is a reflection on the marketing to which consumers respond by buying products as if they are the only ones available.

The market has significant potential to test whether a product rejected because of its appearance can be sold. Sometimes, the reject looks better, but that is a matter of opinion. The same is the case in respect of onions. A farmer in my constituency ploughed a large tonnage of onions because of sizes the supermarkets did not want. Good food could have been sold in the local market.

Senator O'Toole stated that we have one type of butter. It is ironic that, given his pride in the Kingdom, Kerrygold is the dominant brand in the international butter market and has been successful thanks to the Irish Dairy Board and the producers. Ireland does not produce any organic butter, however, which is a large gap in the market. If anyone knows someone who has tried it, he or she should let me know. I would be the first to agree with Senator O'Toole that the diversity of cultures in Ireland allows for significant potential in terms of local dishes. Producer groups will be an important part of farming and I am working in respect of Senator O'Toole's point.

Senator de Búrca referred to Brazilian beef and local brands. Instead of patriotism, this should be a question of different products. To use the car analogy, people do not buy the cheapest car. They buy a particular advertised product because it is different. Sometimes, it is far from being the cheapest car, but it can be successful. Our beef must be differentiated from Brazilian beef in the same way as a car must be distinguishable in many ways other than by its Irish origin. The Senator referred to the farm adviser addressing the Department and local authorities.

Regarding Senator Buttimer's point on Cork and the Munster region, I am familiar with the English Market, which is a good and successful model for large cities and towns. While a weekly market is often appropriate to a medium or small town, a six-day market would be possible in Galway, Dublin or Cork. It is horses for courses and it is important we recognise that one size does not fit all. I dispute the Senator's claim that he does not have green fingers because everyone can grow. It is a question of giving it a go, which is what I did.

He referred to schools, but I do not want to address that matter in detail because it is a significant issue. I will introduce food-growing kits in schools next year as part of the United Nations international year of the potato. I want schools to be aware of and experience Ireland's tradition in growing potatoes.

Senator McFadden discussed the Athlone organic market, but I am not sure it is entirely organic. I hope stall holders distinguish clearly between which of them are organic and non-organic, which is the way it should be. The Senator said the food came from Galway and Ballinasloe, indicating the kind of radius that must be taken into account if we are not to be exclusionary or impractical when discussing regulations.

I have been working on the seasonal issue. Every month, I publish a press release emphasising the particular seasonality of food. While it is essential for our growers, some people do not believe it is important, but I am glad Senator McFadden does. Austria, France and Italy are as proud and cognisant of their food seasons as we are of Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day. There are pumpkin, goose and asparagus seasons and one is considered odd if one looks for asparagus outside that time.

Senator Carty referred to Claremorris and Ballyhaunis. While I know they are markets, they are not listed on the farmers' market list. Senator Carty and I can discuss the issue with Bord Bia to ensure an up-to-date list of available markets.

I know Senator Prendergast from my dealings with farmers' markets in Clonmel. She referred to free range and organic, but it is important to bear in mind that they are not the same. There are different regulations. Antibiotics can be used in free range produce, for example, but not in organic produce.

Tá áthas orm go raibh an Seanadóir Ó Dochartaigh ag labhairt ar an ábhar seo. Bhí mé i dTír Conaill an tseachtain seo caite. Cé go bhfuil gá le fógraíocht, caithfear an fhógraíocht atá ann faoi láthair a aithint freisin. Tá liosta de margaí feirme ar an suíomh idirlíon atá ag Bord Bia. Is fiú go mór an liosta sin. Aontaím go gcaithfimid cur le sin.

The support I want to give to farmers' markets is intended to help local authorities in whatever way we can. The Department is considering putting up finger signposts, ensuring canopies are available and providing for the infrastructure to make markets viable, as is the case in other countries. Ag an am céanna, beidh mé ag labhairt leis an Aire talmhaíochta ó Thuaidh, Michelle Gildernew, mar a bhí mé cheana, mar gheall ar na forbairtí ar an dá thaobh den Teorainn. Beimid ag dul ar aghaidh le sin ó Thuaidh agus ó Theas, le cúnamh Dé.

I will conclude because the debate is drawing to a close. In the wider context and from speaking with business owners and communities, there is no doubt that farmers' markets have a notable positive effect on local businesses and communities. Recent research has shown that every €10 spent at a farmers' market results in a net income of €24 for the local community. There is a spin-off for the local communities and retailers as a result of money being spent at farmers' markets. It has been estimated that the trade for other businesses increases by up to 30% when a farmers' market is run in a town.

The artisan food market has become busy. The specialties sector, including organics, is growing at 10% per annum fuelled by consumers seeking variety, well-being, provenance and taste. Consumer protection and confidence are essential elements in the development of farmers' markets and other direct selling routes.

The time for taking stock of the sector has come. It has developed to a point but has not had the benefit of official endorsement. It has developed in an inconsistent fashion. As Darina Allen said at a recent conference, in some local authority areas farmers' markets are funded; in others, they are fined. These inconsistencies must be addressed. I will be mindful of this debate when discussing the matter with local authorities. I will make the Official Report of this debate available for county and city managers, mayors and cathaoirligh of local authorities to show them there is a democratic mandate and the Oireachtas has an interest in the development of farmers' markets at local level.