Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I agree with what Senator Fitzgerald has just said. I remind the House that not only was the matter accepted by all parties in the House, it was then sent to a committee under the chair of the previous Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and of which our distinguished colleague, Senator Boyle, was a member as well as myself. We had organised a structure under which some of the issues could have been brought into play immediately. We examined step by step the changes in Standing Orders, legislation and constitutional changes that would be required. We did not put in place a timeframe but we set priorities. We should take the matter from there. I support Senator Fitzgerald on this point.

On a personal note, in a recent contribution on this issue the Leader, who is not present, made a remark to the effect that Senators on the Opposition side are not as committed to Seanad reform as they appear to be. My core vote consists of primary school teachers but since 1996 not one qualified primary school teacher can vote for me on my panel. I am fully committed to Seanad reform, although it has the potential to reduce my vote by 10,000. No Senator stands to lose more than me if we proceed with reform of the university panel. I also want all the other reforms to proceed.

I agree with Senator Fitzgerald that the House should discuss the health service. We should start by examining the legislation which established the Health Service Executive. While I may not agree with her conclusion, Senator Fitzgerald is correct to call on the House to examine the question of accountability. We should also examine the issue of responsibility. It would make for a more serious debate if Senators knew who is responsible and who is accountable and what is the difference between responsibility and accountability. Unfortunately, as I have observed over the past 20 years, attitudes quickly change depending on which side of the House Senators sit. We must be able to understand the structure in place and identify who is responsible for what. As I indicated yesterday, the Health Service Executive was established because we did not want political interference in the health service. However, once political interference is removed, we are inclined to demand political responsibility. We cannot have it every way. We must decide what we want in this regard. Let us re-examine the legislation.