Seanad debates

Wednesday, 31 October 2007

Witness Protection Programme Bill 2007: Second Stage

 

6:00 pm

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)

The background to this Bill is clear. All Senators will agree there is a need for the witness protection programme. We need to consider whether the programme is best served by being placed in a legal format, as proposed in this legislation. The evidence available to me, which is anecdotal but quite reliable, suggests that substantial amounts of money are associated with the drugs trade in this country. The presence of such moneys leads to gang activities like turf wars, murders and intimidation. I have heard that wheelie bins full of money are being put away. I have been told that criminals have forgotten where they have put some of the bins in question. When I asked a garda about his role recently, he told me that a plastic sack with money in it had been delivered to the station where he works. When one of his fellow officers asked him to estimate how much money was in the sack, he guessed that there was €300,000 in it because it looked quite large. He was informed that it contained €2 million in cash.

Given that we are talking about circumstances which prevailed in America long before they were encountered here, we have a template from which to work. The life cycle of those who work for criminal gangs on our streets can be as short as two years — if they start at the age of 24, they might be out of existence by 26. Those who operate such gangs, who often live overseas, know how to use the legal system. A witness protection programme exists because it became necessary. There is no need for anybody to become too excited because this Government supports the witness protection programme; we all support the programme. The only question is the basis on which it goes forward. The witness protection programme, in its current form, has gone before the Supreme Court and has been found to be in order. It was tried and tested ten years ago and this gives me confidence in it. Operational flexibility is a requirement and this is another reason for my support of the Government. The Opposition has put forward this Bill and there is no doubt some group, such as a civil liberties group, will test it in conjunction with video evidence. This could throw into doubt the operation of the witness protection programme and this is a risk that cannot be taken. A group could produce a witness and say, "This witness felt intimidated." This could cast doubt on the whole Bill and is another valid reason for not meddling with something that could be tested and could be found to be unconstitutional, in conjunction with some other aspect.

There is no basis for believing that putting the current Garda-operated witness protection programme on a statutory basis would have any effect on the willingness or otherwise of persons to enter the programme. The rationale for such a programme is the willingness of persons to enter it. The Garda Commissioner does not consider that legislation governing the operation of the programme is desirable at this stage. The present arrangements are an operational matter for the Garda Síochána which is best placed to assess whether a person should be admitted to the programme. If placed on a statutory basis, it may prove too inflexible to take account of the unique nature of individual cases. Removing that flexibility may result in individuals being unable to be accommodated in the programme.

For the reasons outlined, I cannot support the Bill.

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