Dan Boyle (Green Party)

I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I acknowledge the atmosphere in which it is being held and the earlier contribution of Senator Alex White. It is important when dealing with the issue of serious crime that we all acknowledge that we have genuine concerns individually and within our respective political parties about its existence and on the need to remedy it in order that it occurs as infrequently as possible. We should never resort to the glib as a political response to these issues.

There is a value in the Private Members' Bill. It comes on the tenth anniversary of the existing programme which is managed by the Garda Síochána. It is in our interests to examine how that works and how, as public representatives, we could suggest how it could work in the most effective way.

The real question is not whether there should be a witness protection programme or whether it can be made more effective, the purpose of the Bill is whether it should be put on a statutory basis. The Labour Party's case was well made. It pointed out the existence of similar legislation in other jurisdictions. The Minister of State responded and there are reasons there would be difficulties, not least because putting it on a statutory basis would be seen to perhaps unnecessarily interfere with operational matters in the Garda and how it tries to provide the most secure service as possible. Having said that, the opportunity afforded to us by this debate, even if we have limited time, should be used to examine wider issues. We should not confine ourselves to the existence of a witness protection programme. As Senator Doherty has suggested, we are admitting our failure as a society when we force people to leave their communities and assume new identities. We have to consider the wider issues of how the forces of law and order get information, act on it and use it to ensure there is as little crime as possible.

To be fair to the Labour Party, it has a commendable track record in this area. Its Deputies have produced Private Members' legislation relating to whistleblowing, for example. Civil servants have advised that the best way to tackle whistleblowing is to deal with it on a case-by-case basis, rather than addressing it in a comprehensive Bill. That advice is being taken on board as various Bills come before both Houses.

I am concerned that a moral distinction is often blurred when people are offered protection by the Garda because they have information that is of value to the force. I refer to the Garda's use of touts when gathering information. We often hear anecdotally about crimes committed by people who are of value to the Garda, some of which can be quite dangerous, being overlooked. The people to whom I refer may be involved in theft and other types of crime. I would have thought we should consider the wider picture as part of any debate on witness protection. People can find themselves in difficult circumstances, such as having to act as whistleblowers or participate in the witness protection programme. The greyest of these three areas — the extent to which the Garda relies on sourcing information from unreliable people who are part of the problem of crime in Irish society — is also the least likely to come up in public debate. If we do not address such issues in debates of this nature, we will let ourselves down as legislators and fail in our duties as representatives of the people.

Having said that, I welcome the opportunity presented by the Labour Party's introduction of this Bill. As Senators Alex White and Hannigan said when commencing the debate on the Bill, one encounters many difficulties when one proposes Private Members' legislation. One works in a kind of lacuna as one tries to produce an effective Bill. One does not have the benefit of the civil servants, such as the officials in the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Attorney General, who are available to Ministers when they initiate legislation. One has to deal with restrictive rules — for example, one is not allowed to include provisions which would impose a cost on the Exchequer. Any future legislation dealing with the witness protection programme will have to be well defined, in terms of how the programme can be funded on an ongoing basis and how its cost to individuals can be met.

This debate might reveal the need for the Oireachtas to examine the witness protection programme on a regular basis — perhaps even on an annual basis. Now that the committee system is up and running once more, a joint committee could be made responsible for asking valuable questions of the Garda Commissioner or his representative. The committee could ask about how much the programme is costing, how many people benefit from it and the extent to which it fulfils its remit of limiting crime in our society. We should constantly seek ways to improve the programme. Sadly, we have to accept that even though the programme is deemed to be necessary, its existence and the involvement in it of individuals who have committed crimes is an acknowledgement that society is being defeated in one respect. We should seek ways of ensuring it is used as little as possible and, when it is used, as effectively as possible.