David Norris (Independent)

Why is the Minister of State saying "no"? Is it a partisan reason because this is what happens every bloody Wednesday in this House? Is it that the Government has really considered the substance of the Bill? I do not imagine it has really considered it.

I refer to some of the things the Minister of State said. He suggested that it was a tiny minority and that it was a very special few. That may very well be but they are there. Every week we see this. Only in the past few days a fellow in Limerick was sentenced for perjury. Having agreed to give evidence, he withdrew or changed it because he was terrified of his former associates. That man was sent to prison despite the sympathy of the judge. This happened in the past couple of weeks. Let us not hear this is some kind of academic thing. It is real and very much part of the current situation. We have a problem where witnesses are very clearly intimidated.

We also have a situation where people are killed. It is now becoming a feature of gangland warfare in Dublin at least that if there is one of these murders — I will not call them killings or executions because they are cold-blooded murders by hired assassins — and somebody happens to be present, that person is just dispatched as a witness. There has been a number of such cases. It is not just a question of intimidation. These people are ruthlessly prepared to cut down and exterminate civilians who are innocent of any involvement. The situation is very serious.

Witness protection programmes have existed in other countries and have been reasonably successful. There are great difficulties involved and I very much welcome that counselling and placements are considered in this Bill. Even if people go along with it, it is a hell of a wrench. People often return at great danger to themselves because they find it difficult to tear themselves away from their backgrounds. We have seen this in the North with both the republicans and loyalists.

It is important that the Labour Party has examined the question of plea bargaining because that could vitiate everything. If it was felt someone was being offered an inducement to give certain types of evidence, there is no doubt that would vitiate his or her evidence to an unacceptable degree.

I strongly support and commend the Labour Party in this regard. It is clear that the protection of witnesses should be undertaken in the public interest because they are being got at. It disturbs justice that people can be made retract or not give evidence at all. It is the rule of the jungle. What actions are the gardaí taking — I am not being critical of them but it is essential we get to the nub of the issue — to find those people who are perverting the course of justice by witness tampering? That used to be a very serious offence. I would like the law and Garda action strengthened in this regard.