Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I commend the Labour Party on introducing this Private Members' Bill. It is good that such Bills are coming before the House with more frequency than in the past. In an earlier debate, Senator Dan Boyle made the point that we should approach issues of national importance on a more constructive, all-party basis. He was met with a hail of derision from Senator Regan's party, if I remember correctly, which was predictable.

Having read the Bill and the reasons put forward in the explanatory memorandum for its introduction, perhaps there is merit in underpinning the current system with legislation. I am not 100% convinced that there is no merit in doing so. As the Minister of State has pointed out, there is already in place a functioning witness protection scheme. For very good reasons, we do not have much information relating to its operation but one would hope it is used as comprehensively as possible. It can be a very effective tool in bringing to justice people involved in very serious criminal activity when the evidential barriers are set very high. In such cases, unless witnesses co-operate, convictions become very difficult, if not impossible.

In many instances, the witness protection programme does not simply apply to the individual witness but also his or her family. It involves a change of identity, relocation in the case of very serious crimes and, as a consequence, financial aid. Representatives of the courts in this and other jurisdictions have occasionally argued that such a financial inducement may compromise the witness and the prosecution. It is a complex area and for that reason it may be difficult to legislate in a way which makes a witness protection programme more effective than the current non-statutory operation.

There is no disagreement in the House about the utilisation of the witness protection programme. The question is whether it should be put on a statutory basis and I do not know the correct answer. However, the programme should be kept under review to ensure that if statutory support is required in the future, it will be forthcoming. The danger of potentially inhibiting the operation of the scheme by making it statutory is illustrated by the Minister of State's comments on sections 13 and 14 of the Bill. Those sections propose to make information on participants available in certain controlled situations. However, under the current system even to make an inquiry about the identity or whereabouts of a person in the witness protection programme is an offence, not to mention actually disclosing such information. I am sure it is difficult to attract people into the programme and potential participants must be absolutely certain of confidentiality and have confidence in the protective measures that will be taken on behalf of themselves and their families.

We must take note of the view of the Garda Commissioner. While I accept the point that the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Government have a responsibility to legislate, in an area as sensitive as this it would be imprudent to proceed against the clear advice of the Garda Commissioner. I have no doubt that the operation of the current system has been tested to ensure it is proceeding reasonably satisfactorily.

One aspect of this issue, which is referred to in the memorandum accompanying the Bill, surprised me. It relates back to the famous Gilligan case. The Court of Criminal Appeal heard a case in August 2003 and criticised aspects of the witness protection programme. The review that was then undertaken by the Garda Commissioner is only now coming to fruition. Perhaps there were good reasons for such a delay, but in the absence of information in that regard, it must be said that four years seems an inordinate amount of time to review an area which should be a pivotal plank in our fight against crime. The reasons for the delay must be examined. I am aware that there was an appeal to the Supreme Court in 2005, which may have been a contributory factor. Nevertheless, it behoves us to act promptly to buttress our systems in order that they address the reservations of the Judiciary and are as effective as possible.

The witness protection programme is only one aspect of the fight against crime. We also have the Special Criminal Courts and the Criminal Assets Bureau. The latter has proved a very effective tool. If the CAB was set up to allow us to inter the assets of criminals and we can already identify many of the serious crime lords, why can we not use the CAB principle to inter them as well as their assets? People who commit murder, rape and other very serious crime have impinged very seriously on the human rights of others. If they make a decision to act thus, the corollary is that they should automatically forfeit a considerable amount of their own human rights.

I refer to the infiltration of gangs by gardaí which is an effective tool for tackling serious crime in many jurisdictions. It is difficult and dangerous work and I ask that it be considered here. I am sure it is happening but I am unclear as to what extent. I hope provisions will be included in legislation in the not too distant future to grant immunity against prosecution to gardaí who, due to the fact they have infiltrated these gangs, find themselves involved in certain crimes. It works in other countries. In Canada, for example, there is legislation granting immunity to police unless they are involved in crimes of a sexual nature or murder. We should bring to Cabinet quickly any armour we can to tackle these crime lords.