Alex White (Labour)

Why can we not have Adamstowns in the north, south, east and west? That is the difficulty. South Dublin County Council is a very progressive body, but that level of input does not seem to be replicated in other parts of the country. The Minister's notes state she is anxious that more local authorities use certain conditions to ensure new schools are in a position to be ahead of or in line with demand. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that anxiety is not sufficient. The Minister and the Government must insist that this be done, whether by way of mandatory guidelines to local authorities or by legislation. Anxiety is not enough. Change must be delivered through actual requirements imposed by central government. I was a member of a local authority for three years and I know it is mainly a function of the manager rather than a reserved function. Even in South Dublin County Council, progressive as it is, I saw little or no debate of these issues within the council and it is not such a live issue in local authorities as has been suggested.

The fundamental point in this debate has been my party's call for a convention. The Minister touched on it at the end of her contribution. She felt there was no real need for one. If she does not mind me saying so, I thought she scoffed a little at the idea in that the former Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, had held one previously for a period of two years and this called into question the need for another forum.

The level of the debate in this Chamber suggests there are a large number of issues that would bear public debate and scrutiny. What is wrong with having that level of debate? We do not suggest large infrastructure or something that would last forever and a day but a convention where consideration could be given to all these issues, including the ethos issue described by Senator Regan and others.

There is a compelling argument, which Senator Bacik made, that the churches should not be involved in education or perhaps we should move towards a largely non-denominational system of education. On the other side of that coin is a real implication, of a financial nature if no other, for us as a community. Even if we leave aside the ethical, moral and political arguments that go with it, if the State must pick up the entirety of the tab, that is a substantial political issue for us all to consider and it is not as easy to say we should just show the churches the door. It will not happen that way and none of us can be naive enough to think it will. That is another issue that needs to be put into the frame in such a forum.

Senator Mullen, in the rhetoric of his speech, stated that the Labour Party does not have the right to prevent people sending their children to denominational schools. There is no suggestion, in the motion or elsewhere, that we would ever wish to do that but, as the Minister has acknowledged, there is an emerging need for a debate on the balance that needs to be struck between the State's involvement, which will inevitably increase, and the churches' involvement which, even according to their own statements, will inevitably recede in the next period. Let us bring that into the public domain.

I remember when I was a child in the early 1970s that there was a debate about community schools and there was a roadshow on television from the then Department of Education. The Department, if the Minister would not mind me saying so, has not always been the progressive organisation it is claimed to be now but even then, in the early 1970s, it got on the road and introduced a debate in urban and rural communities about community schools, their implications, etc. There is nothing wrong with that approach now. It is the kind of issue that is crying out for public debate. In the circumstances, it is not asking a huge amount of the Minister and the Government to provide for that forum and that is the basis on which I move this motion.