Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I thank the Minister for bringing this legislation before the House. My colleague and fellow Kerry man, Senator Coghlan, accused the Minister of rushing the legislation but if I had my way, it would have been before this House last April. Far from being rushed, the Bill was published last April and there have been newspaper articles about it over the last three months. Everybody has had a chance to examine the legislation and offer their view.

I must declare a vested interest in this as I am vice-chairman of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. I am proud of what it has achieved and to have been part of that. My colleagues, Senator Leyden and Senator Coghlan, have also made a huge contribution. We might have differences of opinion with Senator Coghlan tonight but that does not take from his committed interest in this.

First, I will clarify what we are doing tonight. We are correcting an issue in the Bill. The Minister will be aware that the PIAB conducts a constant assessment of how the legislation works and its efficiency. It is our hope that, perhaps, towards the end of next year we might examine this and decide whether some things need to be changed. There will be time for consultation with all groups and the joint committee on enterprise and small business might deal with it at that stage.

I will explain what happens in simple language. The PIAB goes through a process and arrives at a figure, which is offered to the claimant. That might be the end of it; the claimant might accept the figure and the case is over. However, because of another court award, we are unable to deal directly with most of the claimants. Now, the solicitor claims that he or she might be happy with the amount being offered but is not happy with the legal costs. The costs are sent to be taxed, assessed and paid by the registrar. We are effectively dealing with a situation where there is a cost of up €1,800 being placed on something which we assess as being worth €80. This is one of the issues raised. It does not deny anybody his or her day in court. It goes further than what the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Business and Small Enterprise discussed, which was that if somebody goes to court and does not receive a higher award he or she should not get costs, which is the format in other court cases.

To reply to Senator Coghlan, in cases which go to court the assessment work of the PIAB with which the solicitor has no engagement is now valued at up to €1,800 and is added to the costs. We are going backwards. I wish to recall the debate we had in 2004. Both sides of the House were completely misinformed by information.

Prior to the debate, Mr. Conor Maguire of the Bar Council came before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Business and Small Enterprise and told us the answer was to make personal litigation what was termed a "lawyer-free zone". He introduced this phrase to the debate. I and my colleagues, Patricia Byron as chief executive, and Dorothea Dowling as chair of the PIAB, are accused of having a go at legal people. We want to work the legislation as it exists. At that stage, Mr. Maguire said the projected costs to the State would be between €10 million and €30 million per year and that the number of people required to run it would be 200 or 300.

There is no cost to the State. The PIAB is self-sufficient and self-funding and will continue to be. It has a maximum of 85 employees at full flow. During the debate on the original Bill, Fine Gael Senators made impassioned debate about how difficult it would be for claimants to go before the PIAB and make their cases without solicitors. I had to explain to my colleagues this would never happen because it was a paper engagement only and was like sending in one's car registration form.

I had to hold the hand of my colleague, Senator Leyden, after the debate because he was extremely concerned. He had spoken to local solicitors who thought they would be out of work. I am glad he made the point today that they have plenty of work. The view stated was that the PIAB was established to get rid of lawyers and that they would have no more work. This was despite the fact we stated at best 25% of cases would go to court whereas at the time only 10% went to court because 90% were settled. A threat to lawyers never existed.

I have one message for lawyers. Nobody understands the law better than them. What the PIAB does is implement the law of the land. If they have war it is with us as legislators and me as a Senator. It is not with the PIAB or the people doing the work. They are simply the messengers of us, the legislators.

In the Minister's speech, he stated the PIAB is challenged regularly and the Government will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the board is not undermined in its work. I ask the Law Society who will receive a report on it to read this. It is simple, primary school sixth-class English. This is the will of the people and the legislators and it will operate. If difficulties exists they should sit down with us and tell us what are those difficulties and we can work them out. We do not need to be at war with each other.

We have reduced from three years to seven months the settlement of cases. Is there anything more to be stated? I have high regard for the views of my colleague, Senator Coghlan, on this general issue. If difficulties exist I want to hear what is the solution. He made a valid point on the premia. Unfortunately, the PIAB does not have any control over premia. Senators Leyden, Coghlan and myself as members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Business and Small Enterprise have a role in it. We started on that road. All of the insurance companies came before the committee and were asked about their profits.

We also indicated that we would like more people in the market. At this stage we can do no more. The premia have reduced. However, may I state gently to my colleague Senator Coghlan it is incorrect to state a U-turn on the right of appeal has occurred.There is no U-turn on the right to appeal. What we are saying is that if people go to court their costs should be awarded on the basis of the work of the solicitors in the court or attached to the court case, not attaching to the work done by the PIAB. If this legislation is not passed this evening we would go backwards.

I remind the House that prior to 2004 not a month went by in this or the other House when a Member did not stand up and cry about their neighbour's child, their nephew, or son or daughter who was either unable to get or had to pay €3,000 per year for basic insurance cover. We knew those people and we talked about them. Senator Coghlan and I mentioned them. People starting up businesses had to self-insure, they had to carry the risk themselves because they could not get insurance cover. That is only four years ago and we are not going back to that time.

In regard to consulting with the Attorney General, I presume the Attorney General has seen this legislation. I know he would have to have seen the legislation but I would like to hear the Minister put that on the record and that we are not making this up as we go along. This is pro-consumer legislation. What have we done? We have reduced the time taken to process a case from three years to seven months. We have reduced the cost of premia to 1999 rates. We have saved the State approximately €45 million. Each one of those euro can be multiplied by eight. Apart from not costing the State anything, the PIAB has one third of a billion euro and is at full flow and meeting every target.

Much debate took place in the media before Christmas to the effect that we would never reach full flow. Misinformation was put out that we would need to deal with 200 odd cases per week and that we were dealing with an average of only 45 or 50 cases or whatever. I told the House that was not the case and that, in fact, we were close to that number. We have now reached that number and have met all targets and are still assessing where we are going.

The Minister need have no worries. The team running the PIAB come under extraordinary scrutiny from its board, month after month. As chair of the finance committee, I can assure the House we are getting value for money, that there is a constant assessment of costs and that the PIAB is delivering on every target and on every key performance indicator we have set up.

The PIAB is pro-consumer and is doing the business. It exists for us and for the people. It is a winner for everybody, including the lawyers. The lawyers have not been put out of business nor will they be. It is in nobody's intention to do that. Our intention was simply to deal with cases that never went to court in any case. People said we should deal with cases that do not need to go to court. I could give the Minister 12 examples on the lack of stress. A number of people who have gone through the PIAB process have told me they were dreading the thought of going to court, of having to give evidence, of being cross-examined and so on. There is a great sense of relief and freedom from stress.

I am the ICTU nominee on the PIAB. From a worker's and an employer's point of view it gets people back to work earlier. It means people do not have to stay out of work for two years until the case is over. I could speak for a long time on this issue. I compliment the Minister for putting the PIAB in place. It has met all targets set by the Oireachtas. I wish to reassure Senator Coghlan that all the problems he has raised can be dealt with. The point he has made, which has not been dealt with, in regard to the profits of the insurance company is a valid one. It is not an issue for the PIAB but for the incoming joint committee on enterprise and small business. The outgoing chair of the former committee has made it the next target to be dealt with. We have had the insurance companies come before the committee, we have asked the direct questions and looked at their accounts and have insisted that they make information available to the PIAB. There are also other difficulties which we are dealing with under the PIAB but we will not deal with them this evening. Under constant attack from all sides we want the Oireachtas to understand that we are doing what the Oireachtas sought of us.

I commend the Bill to the House. It is important, effective and key to the continuing success of the PIAB.