Brendan Ryan (Labour)

It is a great pleasure to debate ethics with a man who recently and famously on television told us he did not need anybody to put him straight. I accept the absolute ethical compliance and standards of the Minister for Finance. My debates with him are more about what he tolerates in others. I am taken by Senator Dardis's comment that the use of cash deposits would be the type of thing associated with questionable behaviour. I do not believe the man sitting in front of me will ever sit in his office in Tullamore and wait for somebody to arrive with a suitcase full of cash. To put it mildly, he does not need me to put him straight.

It is a question not of ethics for which one can legislate but the conscientious sense of what one should not do, not because a law or rule states one should not but because one knows it is wrong. Waiting in an office for a suitcase of money is wrong. I am indifferent as to how the public interpreted it. I am satisfied it was wrong.

I had an unfortunate accident with the electorate in 1993 and lost my Seanad seat. I had a debate and argument with the returning officer on whether I was entitled to the full recount which I was refused. I threatened to go to the High Court but did not do so. I received a phone call from a friend of mine who is a very successful business man living in Switzerland and working in banking. He asked me why I would not go to the High Court and I stated I could not afford it and I thought I would not win. He offered to pay the total cost of going to the High Court and Supreme Court. I refused the offer and he then offered to pay for my next election which would have been entirely legal in those days. I refused and I do not claim any wonderful moral superiority. It was obvious to me that it would be wrong. Under present legislation it would be illegal.

This is an Irish matter. I have no doubt that if the stories which emerged about the Taoiseach did so in any northern European country, he would have had to leave office. I am also fairly convinced that if they emerged in the United States, he would probably have had to leave office. Recently, Senator Dardis, the Cathaoirleach and I visited the United States. The legislation we have is extraordinarily generous by the standards of the Untied States. Senator Dardis can correct me if I am mistaken in my recollection that members of the United States Congress are not allowed accept a gift in excess of $50.