Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)

I thank the Senators for this amendment. It is probably better for us to make departures in this area in the context of the Green Paper which I hope to publish some time in the middle of April. A considerable amount of work has gone into it. I have had the opportunity to look at some of the early drafts of the Green Paper which is very exciting. It fully rehearses all the options and does not dodge any of them. It will be a very strong focal point for discussion on pensions and will lead to very strong and sensible action in the pensions area.

Lest I do not have the opportunity again, I wish to state that by highlighting these points in my time, Senator Terry has done the Seanad and the country a good service. I mean this sincerely. It is a complicated area, but I know Senator Terry's passion and commitment to ensure the industry behaves, the Pensions Board has teeth and consumers are protected. This is my agenda and that of the Senator and any Minister in this area.

We have come a long way. Between us we have put pensions to the top of the national agenda in recent years. It was the one of the major items for discussion in Towards 2016 and the subject of a number of national debates, pensions forums and many Government, Dáil and Seanad discussions. Pensions have rightly come to the top of the agenda.

We have an expanding workforce of more than 2 million. In respect of coverage, 930,000 people, of whom approximately 500,000 are women, still do not have occupational pensions, so this is of particular concern. I saw a figure stating that more than 80% of people in the retail sector did not have any cover.

I know cover is only one side of it. There are also the issues of adequacy and security which will be rehearsed very strongly in the Green Paper. The more other people and I argue for coverage, for example, that those 500,000 women should have pension coverage, the more responsibility we have to ensure that when they get that cover, it is secure. This is an additional responsibility we have and we must look closely at it in the context of the Green Paper.

Accepting any amendments today would take me back to the Dáil. I have a statutory deadline of 1 April 2007 in respect of this legislation. In any case, I would prefer to make these kinds of changes in the context of a Green Paper. If, for one moment, I thought that the Pensions Board was not receiving co-operation, I would table this amendment myself. The board, which is a State regulator, assures me that it is getting a very high level of co-operation and that it does not see any reason it cannot continue to get this co-operation in the future. It is incumbent on the industry to co-operate with the State regulator, which is the Pensions Board. The industry has a duty to do this.

Senator Terry referred to information in respect of deferred pensions of those in occupational pension schemes who do not qualify for the preservation and revaluation of their pension rights, as provided for when the Pensions Act came into force in 1991. I am aware that the issue of deferred members of occupational pension schemes has also been raised in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs. As I pointed out yesterday, the Pensions Board is finalising its survey of occupational pension schemes with at least 1,000 active members seeking data on their deferred members. The board expects to be in position to give the results of this survey to the members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs tomorrow. I understand from my officials that this information will be sent by courier to each member of the committee during the course of business tomorrow and I hope they find it useful.

The survey will provide the information necessary to estimate the cost of extending preservation to those deferred members. The provision of adequate and timely information is a vital element in enabling the Pensions Board to monitor compliance of national pension schemes. I call on the industry to continue to co-operate fully and transparently with the Pensions Board and to provide it with full information. If this is not forthcoming, and I have no reason to believe it will not be, there will be many other opportunities in the context of action on foot of the Green Paper to introduce the kind of amendment the Senator wishes to put through today. This would be a better time in which to do this.

I formally say to the industry that it should continue full co-operation. I have no reason to believe it will not do so, but I and, I am sure, any Minister would not hesitate to introduce this section if it were required because it is Government policy and the policy of, I am sure, of both Houses that the industry co-operates 100% with the board and that members of the public, especially Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, who seek any information will receive it. I am not privy to the detail other than what was read out by the Senator.

It is incumbent on any State board, particularly a regulator, to treat Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas with full respect and dignity and supply whatever information they are legally permitted to supply. I do not have any great knowledge of other aspects of the Senator's dealings with the particular board, other than that which was read out by the Senator, but Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas must be treated very respectfully and the information must be given. I am not suggesting that this did not happen. I am making a general statement with regard to Members of both Houses. We are honoured to be public representatives and, as such, State agencies have a special duty to supply in a timely fashion information we require to enable us to do our work. Obviously, this must take place within the confines of the law dealt with by the particular State board.

Unfortunately, I cannot accept the amendment but I do not have a difficulty with the concept of it. I have said what I have said about demanding full co-operation with the Pensions Board. There will be many more occasions with other Bills in the wake of the Green Paper for the amendment put forward by the Senator to be taken into law. It is probably best to leave it at that on this occasion, given the timescale we have and given that the Senator is about to receive data tomorrow from the Pensions Board. We will leave it there for the moment. I ask the industry to take careful note of what I have said in the Seanad today.

In respect of the question raised by Senator Cummins, to qualify for a contributory pension a person must satisfy a number of qualifying conditions, including the average contribution test. An average of ten contributions is required for a minimum payment, and 48 for a maximum pension. The test is designed to demonstrate an ongoing commitment to the social insurance system. However, it does give rise to anomalies with people with the same contribution totals possibly getting a different payment, depending on the period over which their record is averaged. The test can also have a dramatic impact on entitlements where a person has a significant gap in their records. We have all had our clinics flooded with people who have such gaps in their records. The Green Paper will examine these issues, including, in particular, where gaps occur. The matters are fully discussed in the Green Paper and options will be put forward for consideration. I do not want to kick everything into the Green Paper but its publication is imminent. It is the result of many years of reports, studies, research, discussion and political debate. We will shortly have, within two covers, fairly stark choices to make. The options will be laid out professionally, including the arguments for and against. It will then be incumbent on the Government of the day to make some fairly tough decisions. The start of a Government's term is probably a better time to make such decisions than at the end of its period in office.