David Norris (Independent)

Yes, but the interests came first. Senator Mansergh did not put the ideals first, which is very telling. That is a position. It is a very old-fashioned 19th-century position. In a world that is globalised, it is no longer relevant. It is the one thing that will get us into trouble. At least, that is my opinion. However, Senator Mansergh was honest and open and dealt with it.

If, by realpolitik, he means we must talk to people we do not particularly respect or admire, he is right. Certainly, in respect of the Middle East, I would be far closer to his analysis than that of my friend and colleague, Senator Quinn. It is astonishing that we should talk about balance and not realise that it is quite the opposite direction to that suggested by Senator Quinn. The balance is against the unfortunate Palestinians who have been hammered into the ground. Look at the language used. When half the Members of the Palestinian Parliament is snatched and kidnapped, we are told they are detained. When two soldiers in a war situation are taken, they are kidnapped. There is no balance. Funds are being illegally kept away from a legitimate government. It may be regrettable, but it was elected. Do we believe in democracy? Not, it seems, when it comes to the Palestinians.

I was one of those who were crucially involved in the establishment of the first Israeli embassy here and have supported and continue to support the State of Israel, but I will not support any government, however close to it I am, that violates human rights. I have said the same about the British Government in respect of the appalling vista. It is time we grew up and faced these things. If the British Government was involved and implicated in bombings and so on, we must know about it to ensure it never happens again.

I have visited places like Twane and Sysia, which are little villages around south Hebron where I am glad to say my former partner, Ezra Yitzrak, whose life is under threat from American settlers, has worked. It sickens me when I hear these people with twangy American voices speak as spokespersons for the Israeli Government and deny the rights of people who have been there for 500, 1,000 and 1,500 years. I have seen what has happened there. I know I will lose votes for saying it, but I will never stop doing so because I do not believe just in Jewish rights, Christian rights or Muslim rights. I believe in human rights for all people.

I am involved in a situation where a small town was demolished and a settlement built on it. This is in the occupied territories and I remind Senator Quinn that it is an occupation. It has been determined to be an occupation under international law and there is no getting away from that. It is also an illegal occupation. In that area, they moved the people out, built their settlement on top of it and employed the Arabs who were displaced to build the houses of their oppressors. Now that the work is finished, they are demolishing the poor, unfortunate makeshift shacks and hovels they have and depriving them of the most basic levels of sanitation and health care. I consider that an outrage and have a video of this incident which I will show to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs.

As someone who is so moved about the Holocaust, it shocks me to see young Israeli soldiers — men and women — laughing, sneering and ridiculing elderly and infirm people as the bulldozers smashed down their pathetic little dwellings. That is not moral, it is disgusting. There is an apartheid system in Israel at the moment, with the development of ghettos. I know that angers my Jewish friends and so it should. It is not the word that should anger them, however, but the reality on the ground that I have seen. It has shamed me and I honour those people like Ezra who stand up against it. I also honour the 19 air force pilots who refused to bomb the occupied territories because it was against international law.

We had an appalling exhibition by the Minister who did not do me the courtesy of coming in and listening to what I had to say. He obfuscated again and answered questions that had not been asked. We know that airplanes were refuelled. Senator White made a reasonable point that perhaps they stopped because of pressure from us. The Minister said we have a great foreign policy and that our approach to Darfur, Zimbabwe and Burma is not motivated by self interest. Of course it is not — we do not have any interests there, so it is easy to say that.

We know they use torture, including water-boarding, and Condoleezza Rice has admitted it. I want the House to listen to a description of water-boarding from an American practitioner who eventually decided to give up this horrible practice. I remind the House that torture is defined by the United Nations as follows: "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession". This is what the man who practised water-boarding had to say about it:

Water-boarding is a torture, period. I ran a water-board team and administered dozens of students through the process as a tool to show what the worst looks like, short of death. This is why there is a doctor and psychologist standing right next to the student — to do it safe and help the student recover. It is not a simulation. When applied you are in fact drowning at a controlled rate. We just determine how much and how long you'll break. Everyone breaks.