David Norris (Independent)

In response to what Senator Walsh has said, I do not believe for a minute that judges read transcripts of Oireachtas debates. They do not decide that certain things must be done because Members of the Oireachtas said they should be done. I am perfectly certain that judges never bother to check what we say. The measures which are passed into law are parsed and analysed by judges. They do that in terms of the precedent set in previous judgments, etc. They are interested in what the Minister referred to as the legal culture. They are not interested in the political culture, by and large. I cannot recall a single case in which a judge, having referred to what it says in section 3(6) of a Bill, for example, went on to emphasise what had been said during the Seanad debate on the matter. I challenge the Minister, who challenged Senator Maurice Hayes earlier, to cite a case in which a judge decided that it was perfectly obvious what was meant in legislation, on the basis of what had been said in the Oireachtas. I do not believe for a single second that there has been such an instance. Maybe I am wrong; it is possible.

I would like to mention one more thing. I am a little confused, which is an uncomfortable state in which I frequently find myself. The Minister seems to be suggesting that I am trying to tie the hands of juries.