Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

I am utterly mystified by Senator Bannon's contribution. The amendment I have tabled provides precisely for what he has asked. I am also mystified by his suggestion that the legislation does not deal with the objectivity of the assessment process. Section 20 states that "a person who makes an application under this section shall submit the following...". It goes on to outline the objective matter to be submitted. Amendment No. 6 provides for practical experience assessment procedures. We have reached a situation in this House where Members are listening to one lobby only and not reading legislation. That is the only objective, rational assessment I can make. There is no logic in the Senator saying we are not doing something when we are providing in the Bill for precisely what he has asked. If he looks at amendment No. 6, he will see that""practical experience assessment procedures" means the procedures under. . .". To suggest in impassioned terms that somehow or other we are not listening, that we are not doing precisely what he has asked for and that somebody who meets the objective criteria will be thrown out of his or her job is nonsense. It does not make any sense. What the Senator has asked for is encompassed in amendments Nos. 3 and 6. It could not be more clear-cut than the way in which it is set out in those amendments.

Senator Norris made a very interesting contribution about the pre-points system of admission to universities. He was right in that regard. Those of us who went through the university system before 1977 entered universities in which there was much patronage and a degree of nepotism. The Senator was right that if one wanted to enter certain faculties, one did not necessarily do so on the basis of one's academic capacity. Many good people were prohibited from entering the professional faculties simply because they could not get in. I say this as someone who was in university before the points system was introduced and who wished to gain access to a faculty other than the one in which I studied. I saw the radical change brought about following the introduction of the points system in 1977. The Senator was correct that the system in place before 1977 was bad and inappropriate. There is no doubt that the system introduced since is a murder machine because the emphasis now is on points.

The Senator had two concerns. Oddly enough, one of them was the exact opposite, in many ways, of the concerns expressed by Senator Bannon who does not seem to have fully taken on board the import of the changes made in the amendments I have tabled. If he reads them again, he will see that they fully take on board his concerns.

Senator Norris has made the counter point that he does not want a portmanteau clause which will allows anybody, including the chancer to whom I referred, to become an architect. That is not the purpose of the Bill and it will not be possible when enacted. If the person I have in mind presented the "quality" of work he has presented to an assessment board, it will not come through the process. It is not quality work and has caused untold pain and difficulties for people who have gone through the planning process. It is not unique to County Wicklow; it has happened elsewhere.

A concern which has not been mentioned and which sadly has been absent from much of the debate relates to consumer protection. When one goes to somebody who calls himself or herself an architect, one goes believing a body of work will be produced which will stand up to scrutiny. When one sees some of the work submitted to planning departments, one sees there is a dire need for this change from the point of view of consumer protection.

I suggest Senator Bannon look again at amendments Nos. 3 and 6 which fulfil the objective he seeks to achieve. He is right that we are enacting the Bill, not the wishes or views of a Minister. The Bill provides for what the technical assessment board should be mindful of, on which amendments Nos. 3 and 6 elaborate further.