David Norris (Independent)

I have a little hesitation about this. Amendment No. 5 is so broad that it could cover people such as Mr. Grant who operated in Gardiner Street, Dublin, and behaved in the most disgraceful fashion. I would not like to see that. Perhaps licence will not be given to people who posed as architects in the past because a qualifications system and an assessment board will be in place. Giving a blanket acknowledgement might be risky.

However, to balance that, I have had discussions with very responsible people who took time out of busy lives to talk in detail about the issues involved. During the 1960s and 1970s, they attempted to gain entry to the schools of architecture in UCD and Bolton Street but the courses were full because of the limited number of places. Although they had sufficient points and an academic entitlement to take up the course, they were not in the top 30 or among the first applicants and, therefore, they did not gain entry to the course. They were perfectly suitable candidates and, as a consequence, they pursued courses in draughtmanship, technical drawing and engineering. They met the requirements to practise as architects. They, therefore, have appropriate architectural qualifications, they have considerable experience and they have been employed at a senior level in architectural practices. One man who visited me was a senior partner in a firm. Those who have the experience, the portfolio and academic qualifications in an area clearly related to architecture are in a good position.

Another worry expressed by the individuals I met concerned the portfolio criterion, under which they felt they could be required to demonstrate experience, for example, in 100 different areas. They would have to laboriously outline that from a specific drawing they learned how to put a screw in a gutter. If that is the case, it is not fair because that will impose a higher standard than is appropriate in the circumstances.

There is a group of persons that was not well served by the third level institutions. Although there was a demand for architects at the time and theses individuals were entitled to a place, they were denied on the basis of a lack of places on the course. They then undertook parallel courses and obtained academic qualifications. They have a track record and they should be able to register easily. This situation is historic and it will not recur. They should be treated favourably but, at the same time, I would not like a portmanteau clause whereby anybody who is practising should be registered automatically. Perhaps I am wrong about this but I do not like it.

I refer to people like the gentleman in the Minister's constituency who could not draw two lines on a piece of paper and who did some scandalous work, which he tried to dump on the county councillors. For the first and perhaps only time in my life, I felt a twinge of sympathy for county councillors when the Minister referred to this. I would hate to think that individuals such as this would receive favourable treatment. However, a strong argument can be made on behalf of those I referred to earlier and about whom Senator O'Rourke spoke so convincingly.