Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

I am grateful to Senator O'Toole for illustrating that the process is robust, is not dominated individually and is multi-tiered. That is important because it has a bearing on the fears and concerns that have been expressed in some of the material I have seen.

Senator O'Toole is correct that there is a preponderance of lay persons. In the first instance, there are the architects, the persons who will be nominated by the Minister and the person with legal experience. As he correctly stated there is then the second separate technical assessment process, which also is not dominated by the group, and also there is a further right of appeal to the court which could not be denied in any event.

The contributions of Senator O'Toole and others raised a number of issues related to the technical assessment process. The point of the technical assessment process is to provide for registration for persons with ten or more years experience in the State performing duties commensurate with those of architect. It is a necessary process. Section 20 sets out the criteria for which the technical assessment panel must have regard, and that is an entirely appropriate way of dealing with it.

I understand the concerns raised about the recognition of practical experience and I also am aware of the views of some in the profession in this regard, but the concern that practical experience would not be recognised is a false one because the technical assessment process is not based purely on the academic learning. The idea of recognition of prior learning is not unusual and exists elsewhere. Senator O'Toole, for example, will be aware that HETAC states that the concept of life-long learning underpins the national framework of qualification. Recognition of prior learning is a process and, therefore, the concept is not novel.

The concept of prior learning encompasses, but is not exclusively focused on, formal learning. The concept also includes non-formal learning which is the learning of on-the-job training and informal learning which takes place through life and work experience. The idea that recognition of prior learning is a mystery, a new system, something novel or virgin territory with which we are not familiar is false. All of that is protected in the legislation. Once the Bill is in force, the registration body will nominate three architect members and there will be architects who are registered but who may or may not have been members of the RIAI. One should note that if one is registered, one need not join the RIAI. There is a pool of architects available for appointment by the registration body.

I listened carefully to debate on all of the arguments. We are in danger of getting ourselves talked into a position of sterility on an issue that needs to be changed, both from the point of view of protection of a profession and from the point of view of protecting the consumers — the latter are a major concern of mine. As Senator Norris generously recognised, there are many Bills in my Department that could have taken precedent over this legislation, and I would have run into rather less lobbying at the last minute in those cases. Every available opportunity to meet people's reasonable concerns has been taken in this legislation. As I stated, there was agreement on the legislation right up to the end of last year. Senator Leyden was correct to remind me that there were one or two individuals who are outside any of the professional groups and, in fairness, I sought to meet them as well because I believed they also had a view.

All of the concerns raised have been answered. Persons are not being forced into the RIAI and there is a robust technical assessment system which will take account of life-long experiential learning, which is the point made by Senators Leyden and O'Rourke. Our long-established procedures recognise prior learning and we know what that entails from, for example, HETAC and elsewhere.

The point was made twice here that it was just about academic learning but that is disingenuous. The lobby which has suggested it is simply not reading the Bill. The reality is that prior learning is formal learning, non-formal and informal learning as well as experience over the years, and all of that is dealt with robustly. For all of those reasons I will not be accepting the amendments.