Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I thank the Minister of State and Senators for their contributions. They were very helpful. The debate progressed the issue substantially. I welcome the point made by Senator Ó Murchú. I also heard differing views from various credit unions. The one aspect which depressed me about the matter was that some people told me their views but asked me not to mention their names. It bothered me because I sensed a type of oppression in terms of putting forward viewpoints. As Senator Ó Murchú stated, it is important to hear various views. This was one reason I wanted to discuss the matter today.

As Senator Mansergh correctly stated, my natural inclination is to negotiate my way through difficulties. However, when matters sit around, as this has, encouragement is needed to move them on. The timescale is important. Senator Quinn made a point which I did not. We only have one and a half major mutual societies in the country, namely the EBS and half another organisation which is about to change. Much as I regret stating it, the EBS will not hold against becoming a plc. Within a short period, credit unions will be the only mutual part of the financial services.

I enjoyed the speech made by the Minister for State. I thank him for agreeing with everything I stated and supporting me on the issues. I could not find any point of difference. The Progressive Democrats learned the game quickly. The Minister of State agreed with me on everything and then opposed my Bill. There is a logic there which escapes me. We Independents are naive in these situations. I notice the issues raised by the Minister of State. He explained the reasons for not supporting the Bill. They were not to do with the content of the Bill but the timescale. He expects proposals to come forward and have something towards the end of March. This is important and I will return to it.

Senator McDowell raised the fact that we do not have a split and we should not do anything to encourage one. Everything we do should be aimed at pulling people together in the long term. I hope this is the case because, as Senator Phelan pointed out, this service is provided to all of Ireland.

The question of statutory compulsion was raised by Senators McDowell, Mansergh and Fitzgerald from various points of view. We must be clear that, if this is established either through the system being negotiated with the Minister of State or through my Bill, ultimately we cannot have a choice and credit unions must be part of it by ensuring and guaranteeing. It does not give offence to the freedom of association provision in the Constitution. It is a different matter. It is protective in that if an entity is to be called a credit union it must be part of it.

In the letter I quoted which was sent from the credit union advisory committee to the Minister of State, the first point made was that a fund must be separate from individual credit unions and credit union associations to lessen the risk of funds being used for purposes not related to insolvency and financial default. Many speakers stated this, and it is important.

I agree with Senator White on the need to create an all-Ireland dimension. I also want to examine it in the context of a number of credit unions in the South and a significant number in the North not being affiliated. This would provide a great opportunity to create an all-Ireland dimension and ensure it through shadow legislation, agreement or financial instruments. It can be done and I was through it before.

I cannot believe Senator Mansergh caught me out on section 12 and I concede completely on it. I conducted that business over the phone and got a drafter to examine it. He put in the traditional reference to TDs, Senators and local authorities. I asked him to remove that reference. He removed the reference to TDs and Senators but allowed in local politicians. I apologise to my colleagues on the other side of the House. It will be removed on Committee Stage and they will not see it again.

All other issues raised by Senator Mansergh are dealt with. Ring fencing, which was also raised by Senator McDowell, is part of the Bill. I accept the power to amend legislation should be clearer and must be dealt with on Committee Stage. Under the Bill, investment is with the approval of the regulatory authority and on the basis of what the regulator states, so this is not an issue. Taxation is not dealt with but it would be unusual to do so. Taxation is a legal instrument in itself and the Bill would be governed by the instruments of taxation and tax law. I dealt with the other issues.

Nobody mentioned the main issue, which is consumer protection. We all implied it. However, I wish to state that this is a consumer protection issue. I was pushed on this because, in a recent case, experts gave evidence to the High Court that the current scheme was deficient. This concerned me and I want legislation which will stand alone. The point of most significance and influence was made by the Minister of State when he stated that he put a time limit on this matter and will know something by 30 March. I did not know this when I drafted the Bill two months ago. It is significant. On that basis, I propose to withdraw the Bill and re-enter it at a later date if I do not see progress. I want to use this to put pressure on people to do what is required. At this time I would, with the leave of the House, propose that the legislation be withdrawn.