Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

——that greeted this initiative which I found difficult to reconcile with the dignity of this House. There is no such thing as political patents on good ideas. Good ideas, even when put forward first by a particular politician or party, do not belong exclusively then to that person or party. If they are good ideas they will gather support from many different sources and of course if they are bad ones, they will be abandoned even by the people who put them forward.

It is a good principle that Members of this House, both on the Government and Opposition side, are free to put forward legislative proposals. It is important to protect that principle and people should not be derided for so doing even if, as in this case, the person putting the Bill forward is a member of the same party as the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The background to this matter was the tragic Nally affair. People living alone, especially in the countryside, are or may feel particularly vulnerable. The affair had all the ingredients — a farmer, living in isolation, land, a member of the Traveller community. That there may have been unreasonable provocation and intimidation does not justify overreaction, but this legislation and the Minister's draft heads of a Bill illustrate how extraordinarily difficult it is to cover all the possible circumstances in an area of this kind where there are unlikely to be outside witnesses or third parties. They also demonstrate how difficult it is, even when the law is settled, for judges to arrive at the right, balanced conclusion on the circumstances.

I am glad the Minister said in his response that juries are given the option of rejecting a plea of legitimate defence where they are satisfied it was unreasonable not to retreat. This might not apply in all circumstances but, as the Minister said, it preserves the principle of conflict avoidance in circumstances where that is possible. Much though we may admire those who take defence into their own hands, be it in the home or during a bank raid, it is better to avoid conflict in most cases, if possible. We should not give any impression otherwise.

I accept the point that it is justified for people to engage in self-defence. How many people do we know who secretly keep a poker behind their bedroom or kitchen doors or, in certain circumstances, a shotgun? If one brings down a poker on the head of an intruder, one does not intend to kill him, but there is a slight risk that it will be the effect. Intruders should be perfectly clear that they are not entering a harm-free zone and they may get injured, or worse. Perhaps they should contemplate this before they intrude in the first place. The law should not be over-protective of intruders although it must reprove any excessive or gratuitous use of force.

This issue requires more detailed legislation, such as the legislation the Minister is proposing. I appreciate that we are not discussing primarily the heads of the Minister's Bill but I will refer to one point. Under head four, there is no defence if the person in question knows the force is used against a member of An Garda Síochána acting in the course of his or her duty, or a person assisting such a member. This should apply to all public officials. In this regard, one should bear in mind the slightly comic example of the advertisements showing a television licence inspector appearing in a person's yard. Is the inspector not entitled to protection also?

Circumstances involving certain public officials, such as agricultural inspectors, entering one's land can be emotionally fraught and therefore legislation should be very clear as to when public officials may enter property legitimately. While welcoming Senator Morrissey's initiative, I take the Minister's central point that very detailed and carefully drafted legislation is required. Even then, much discretion will have to be exercised by judges, who will have to make fine judgments on the circumstances of particular cases.

I very much welcome this discussion because it is important to everyone.