Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)

I also welcome this Bill. The Minister of State was right in saying it is not contentious or at least it should not be. He was also right in pointing to the calibre and quality of judges who have served this State well down through the years. The Bill is a reflection of societal changes we have at present. The judicial system or judges are no more immune from those changes and pressures than any other arm of State. For that reason it is important to take account of those changes and the debate on this area which has been raging for some considerable time. Unfortunately, in these matters, a debate takes place only when some major incident occurs or some controversial item arises. That is not the best way to have such a debate nor is it the best way to legislate. At all times, we should monitor the changes in society, the level of crime, the types of crimes, the people who re-offend and the rights of victims. There are so many issues. It should be monitored at all times and legislation should be introduced when necessary.

In this case, it is evident that we need more judges at all levels in the courts. In a libel case against newspapers on reports about the death of Liam Lawlor, the lady bringing the case had travelled a long distance to Ireland with a full team of people. She was expecting the court case to take place that morning, but it was not possible to do so because another case had run too long. There is something wrong when that happens. While it might not have been possible to have the case at a given time, it should have been foreseen that the delay was going to occur so that people would not have come under that kind of pressure and expense.

I find current legal fees outrageous and there is no basis for them. I agree with Senator Walsh that it is not enough to be aspirational about this. I also know that confrontation will not serve any purpose, but legal fees must be examined because they can have an impact on an individual. If a person believed that he or she had been defamed but was not a wealthy person, the chances of his or her being able to pay the bill for a defamation action that went to the High Court would be almost nil. There is something wrong with the legal system and there is a flaw within the democratic system that this has not been examined. We must speak on behalf of the citizens about legal fees. If it is essential, we should have some confrontation with the legal world.

There was a time when the territory of judges was sacrosanct and one dared not make any criticism. I believe we have gone too far in the opposite direction and there is a media onslaught after every case. In some areas, the media is crossing the line between the presumption of innocence and the proof of guilt. Public opinion fuelled by the media can sometimes create a coercive atmosphere for judges. We want judges to be independent. We want them to base their judgements on the evidence and not feel they must respond. Many cases are horrific and there is a great deal of emotion among the public when they arise, especially cases of a sexual nature involving children. However, it is important to ensure judges believe it is their job to be impartial in all cases. The same situation would apply to any serious crime that arises. It was once taboo to criticise judges, but it may now be going the other way.

The judicial council is a brilliant idea for the citizens and for the Judiciary. It will provide a certain insulation for judges from public and media pressure. It is right that lay people will sit on that judicial council. People do not want professionals examining their own because there is no independence. Whether it be a Garda inquiry or any other inquiry, it is vital that it is transparent and accountable. If complaints are made about judicial misbehaviour, it is important they are examined. I say that in defence of judges as well as the judicial system. The make-up of that council will be exceptionally important and the involvement of lay people on the council will provide a good perception of it.

We should not underestimate the great progress made with the courts system. I can remember reading local newspapers in the middle of winter years ago that quoted the District Court judge referring to the cold or other lack of convenience. That kind of thing has largely disappeared and we can see the progress that has been made. There was a time when local newspapers reported what judges said and these statements were often of an eccentric nature. It was a form of local entertainment.

I remember a famous case in my part of the world where an application had been made for an extension to a licence because a meal was going to be served. The judge asked what type of meal would be provided and the hotelier answered that it would be potatoes and chicken. When he was told how many people would be at the meal, he calculated the amount of potatoes in weight that would be needed. He asked the hotelier how he could boil such an amount and the hotelier told the judge that he had a four-stone pot. The judge decided to adjourn the case until the hotelier brought the pot into the court because he wanted to tell his grandchildren that he saw one. Is that the way we want the judicial system to operate? In another case involving two ladies who had come before the court following a brawl, a judge criticised the feminist movement because he felt that it was turning the women of Ireland into alley cats. That was the headline in the evening newspaper. Many of these humorous cases do not help the system.

I am delighted that we will confront the gangs. Dreadful killings have taken place in the middle of the day and not just in Dublin. Something must be done. There is a feeling of helplessness that the system does not allow us to penetrate the insulation provided by the gangs. I am glad to see that these changes will occur, not just in bail but also in the area of silence. I know the Irish Council for Civil Liberties has come out on this issue and it is right that the council should enter the debate. However, I would like to repeat what I said this morning when Senator Brian Hayes raised the issue of the rights of victims. It is time we had a level playing pitch in this area. When we argue for the criminal, we should ensure the victim is first in our minds. Victims have not had a level playing pitch where these gangs are concerned. Many of their victims have not been from the feuding gangs. Innocent bystanders have been involved and it will not be long before an unfortunate garda will get caught in the middle of one of these shoot-outs.

The Government and the Minister are showing courage by introducing this measure. If we do not send out the message that what is happening is unacceptable, the gangs will feel they have immunity. We all remember the tragic death of Veronica Guerin, God rest her soul. We responded and we reacted at that time. We must continue to do that in all cases.

Reference was made to people out on bail. Some people are out on bail when they commit an offence. Unless they have a medical or other serious problem, they are not entitled to our primary consideration. It is a serious matter when people released on bail reoffend and we must do what we can to ensure that does not arise.

It was right to take the route of the family law courts and to publish Carol Coulter's reports. It is important we are aware the headline is not always the reality. Research on the family law courts shows that in general people are satisfied with the system. I am not overly critical of the media in general because my experience is it serves a great purpose and has been exceptionally good in the area of investigative reporting. Many of the shocking issues we have learned about would never have come to light but for the media. However, where the family courts are concerned, I appeal to the media to ensure privacy is protected. In addition, journalists should not just highlight one bad case without indicating the progress and success that has taken place.

The final issue I wish to raise relates to tribunals. I have no axe to grind in regard to the tribunals and do not expect to be brought before one for any reason. However, what is happening in them casts a shadow over the judicial system. There is no due process and the characters of many have been ruined. Whether we like it or not, the shadow is not confined within the tribunals. I hope we can have an all-party discussion on the issue, not to gain political points or to scaremonger, but because it is the right thing to do for the sake of justice and the judicial system.