David Norris (Independent)

I thank Senator Quinn for sharing his time. I welcome the Bill. I believe there is a role for the Seanad in refining and, perhaps, amending this legislation. This is an interesting situation which we are addressing for the first time. Ireland has a small arms industry. The Minister will be aware of the famous Timoney armoured car, tank and other products. There are very clever engineers in UCD. The problem is the destination of these products.

I recall with sadness the late Robin Cook making a stand for an ethical foreign policy while simultaneously continuing to export Hawk aircraft to Indonesia in the knowledge that they were being used against the civilian population of East Timor. This House took a particular interest in that situation, guided to a large extent by the remarkable work of Tom Hyland. I also recall raising the arms issue when the French were sending Alouette helicopters to the same destination. The French Prime Minister rebuked me and said the European Union was not a human rights organisation. Luckily the articles have been amended and there are now human rights protocols in the foundation treaties of the European Union. It was a cynical view; he was simply focused on the question of employment.

The Minister raised an essential point from the Irish point of view when he said that one of the challenges to be faced is the blurring of the distinction between military and civilian goods. Ireland is in some difficulty in that regard. Ireland produces material that might not immediately appear to be military hardware but which has a clear military application. Examples are computer hardware and guidance systems for weapons. These are being produced here. It is estimated that hundreds of millions of euro worth of the computer systems that are exported are used for the guidance of weapons, including weapons used by the Americans against people in Iraq.

At this point we reach a moral decision between employment or decency. We must handle this clearly and take a stand. We can try to safeguard employment or find other areas of employment. There may well be a cost but we should not have blood on our hands. I clearly recall that when Mr. de Valera's grandson, the Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, was on the Government benches in this House he spoke passionately against any Irish involvement in arms manufacturing. I wish the voice of the late President Eisenhower had been heeded when, in the 1950s, he warned the American people against allowing a takeover by what he called the military industrial complex. That is exactly what has happened under Cheney and Bush. It has driven America into a disastrous situation.

I agree with my colleagues that this situation must be examined. There is horrendous immorality throughout the world. I am half-English but one of England's largest income generators is arms. England is either the largest or second largest exporter in the world of the instruments of death. The licensing alone of exports is no good without an ethical framework. I recall the British Department of Trade giving a licence for a custom-made torture chamber for one of the Arab states. This occurred about 20 years ago although I do not recall whether it was for Saudi Arabia or Qatar. The obscenity of somebody sitting in comfort in an office in Whitehall and signing an export order for a torture chamber, custom made for these savages, is outrageous.

We should deal with this issue as a package. We should examine the issue of cluster bombs. The Independent Senators have a motion on the Order Paper dealing with the obscenity of these weapons. Pax Christi has been extremely useful in advising the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on this issue.

We require a strong monitoring system for end use. We must know what materials may or may not be primarily seen as instruments of war. The end use is extremely important. We must consider this entire area as a package and take a determined moral stand against the proliferation of arms. We would receive moral credit if we did so on behalf of the majority of ordinary people who are against these. A small number of immensely influential people are making money out of this filthy trade.