Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)

I join those who have welcomed this Bill. I avail of this opportunity to pay a well deserved tribute to the Minister, who is like a breath of fresh air in the area of rights and opportunities for people with disability. The hallmark of his ministry to date is his focus on consultation rather then controversy. This is exactly what is needed in this area. We have some well organised, well intentioned and professional lobby groups for people with disabilities. At times when such groups found it necessary to use the media to make a point, that was done more out of frustration than anger. The feeling was that there was no opportunity to present their cases.

I was taken by some of Senator Cox's comments in the context of the difficulties that existed in the past in regard to mainstreaming for those with disabilities. One may theorise as much as one wants about an issue such as this but the people who know best what is required are those who themselves have disabilities. While one may sympathise with somebody who suffers a bereavement, one can never feel that person's grief. The same is true of the challenges that face people with disabilities. Such challenges may consist of something as simple as access to a building or may relate to a wider issue, such as a generalised characterisation of people with disabilities or a patronising attitude towards them.

The growth in the network of citizen information centres was to some extent organic. There was no major plan and many of the centres had their own particular style. Taking up Senator Mansergh's point about public representatives acting as advocates, many of these centres enjoyed the involvement of political activists because there was the possibility of growth without conformity. However, there were also weaknesses in the system. I say this without in any way taking from the work done by the centres. They carried out several important functions, such as avoiding over-familiarity and endeavouring to reduce offsetting bureaucracy. There was always the perception that one could walk into one of these centres and find someone with whom one could identify. I would not like to see that change.

However, society has changed and people are now presented with new opportunities. The economy, in particular, has changed for the better. We must ensure that people can avail of the new opportunities and resources. It is clear from this Bill that the Minister was not satisfied merely with producing legislation; he also produced the funding. There are issues other than funding, however. Our perception of people with disability is a particularly important issue. I have had experience in recent times of a FÁS scheme in an area where some people with disabilities joined the workforce. It was a wonderful experience. When the people with disability came in, they did not do so in some type of categorised fashion or to create a balance between the able-bodied and people with disability. There was a vacancy, they came in and they blended in in such a way that one could see development in their attitude and in that of other people to them. This is what I would regard as mainstreaming. There was equality, which was vital. I am sure that occurs in many schemes.

I have often said the reason FÁS has been so successful has been that the people who have run the schemes have been exceptionally pragmatic practitioners. Whatever their background, whether they are carpenters or otherwise, they have brought that attitude to the job so bureaucracy has been very much diluted. They have been able to deal and engage with people who have wanted to work with FÁS. They have always been ahead of the posse in deciding what is necessary and what should be done. I recommend FÁS as a model in terms of what it has achieved without, in some way, categorising and excessively highlighting people with disability. Since these schemes have provided training and those participating in them have not been part of the general labour force or in pursuit of jobs because their needs have not allowed them to take up jobs, I guarantee that virtually every FÁS scheme will demonstrate the point I make. That is being done without any fanfare. As a result, the situation is normalised and there is equality.

One cannot have 230 citizen information centres without developing a cohesive policy for them. This comes back to what I said about the availability of opportunities and resources. The only way to do this is by a single branding, which is what is intended here, as anything else will weaken the ability to avail of the opportunities which exist.

There are other aspects to this as well. There is a learning curve for each of the centres. If they always see themselves as isolated, stand-alone centres without having similar experiences to other centres, although we know that is not the case, they will miss out on those opportunities. This legislation, however, will supply that learning curve. I cannot see how one can have a new engine without fuel, or a director. The suggestion that there will be a director of staff makes so much common sense that one wonders why it was not done previously. That is why I paid tribute to the Minister and his officials in this regard. We have now identified an important element.

I noticed Senator Cox sounded a few notes of warning. She is exceptionally good at that and is generally very prophetic. She usually speaks from experience. I join her to this extent, namely, it is very important that the new advocacy structure does not, in some way, create a bureaucracy which should not exist. It should only be seen as complementary or supplementary to the new system being put in place. I do not know how one could do that but one way is for primacy to remain with the centres. The work of the centres should be acknowledged. They have often worked without great resources and in buildings and centres which have not been especially suited for the work they had to do. Nevertheless, they have given an important service so the primacy should remain with them. However, the real primacy must be the people with disability. That is why we must avoid any type of bureaucracy which prevents them from having a voice. From reading the Bill, it is quite clear there is no intention to create a structure which, in some way, becomes paramount.

At one stage, I was surprised by Senator Mansergh's approach to the debate but he was 100% right. An issue arose recently, which I will not mention, relating to representation by a Member of the Oireachtas. The debate became very broad. I even heard a person for whom I have the greatest respect, Fr. McVerry, make a point about it on a political programme the other night. He was wrong to say there is a need to remove public representatives from the area of representation. That is all very well for people who understand the system and for people who know and have the confidence to look for their rights. I have made representations for hundreds of people who, despite the best will in the world, were not capable of doing so themselves.

I will give another example of this which might be slightly against Government policy but I will do so anyway. I always believed getting rid of the health boards was a retrograde step because somebody who could not get attention, etc. could knock on the door of an advocate, namely, a public representative, seven days per week. Public representatives should not only feel they have a mandate but that they have the confidence of the people. They are held accountable for whatever results they deliver. If that element of democracy is taken away, it is a weakness. I now understand why Senator Mansergh focused on that so much.

I very much welcome this Bill which is long overdue and so practical. A contest should not created between the system and the information centres. It should be seen as a partnership trying to deliver cohesion which, in the long run, will give people the opportunity to get their rights. That is what it is about. It is not about charity or something to which people are not entitled. If it does that, and it certainly can help towards doing so, this is among the best legislation I have seen in a long time. I wish the Minister and his Department well in pursuit of this.