Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I thank Senator Norris for allowing me to share time with him. Before the Minister leaves the Chamber, he should note the three questions that must be answered, namely, how much, how many and when. To make the new agency work, how much money will it get for its budget, how many people will it be able to appoint and when will it receive its money?

I have witnessed this process many times previously. I serve on a number of bodies and am director of several agencies on the State's behalf and, inexorably, the following sequence takes place. Initially, there is great hoopla and brouhaha about establishing the body in question. As soon as it has been established by the Oireachtas, the parent Department, which in this case is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, is given the job of setting up the authority or agency. At present, this agency is working on an interim basis. However, this has become a four-year process and I propose to take the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Killeen, through the steps. There will be at least six months of arguments regarding the chief executive's pay, followed by another six months deciding how many people will be allowed to work. The process will then move from the interim board to the Department, which will argue, do whatever it can and thereafter will take up the matter with the Department of Finance. The argument will then start up again with the Department of Finance, which will include the budget for the new body in the budget of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Consequently, this will create other constraints every year.

Matters within some of what one might call quasi-Government Departments are appalling. The State should set up such agencies and allow them to work on their own. However, this will not happen, which will be the death of many bodies that work with a parent Department. This is not a reflection on the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. In respect of some of the bodies with which I am involved, it has been completely supportive and progressive in terms of getting things done. However, matters run into the sand within the Department of Finance and this is what will happen in this instance.

As I stated at the outset, there are only three questions to be answered about this body. It has been set up because the previous body lacked the resources to carry out the purpose for which it was established. While the previous consumer body had many plans to undertake initiatives, it did not receive the funds to so do. This Bill is a political response and its purpose is to be seen to be doing something by creating a brand new office with a brand new set of support structures. No one can oppose it, as the announcement of the establishment of a new consumer protection agency or Bill will meet agreement from all, as though it were motherhood and apple pie, as it is a great idea. However, Members should not forget that a good system existed previously that did not get sufficient resources. This agency will not be able to do its work if it does not get the requisite resources. How much money will it receive for its budget? How many people will it be entitled to appoint and when will it be allowed to so do?

I ask the Minister of State to respond to my next point regarding a problem the new national consumer agency will face as it sets up its structure. Everyone appointed to it will have a salary related to Civil Service or public service grades, probably the former. Hence, all salaries will be based on those enjoyed by higher executive officers, assistant principal officers, principal officers, assistant secretaries or whatever. Problems will arise subsequently, because this agency will need some professionally qualified people. It should be permitted to recruit them at levels that pertain in the private sector. I repeat that it should be allowed to recruit on the basis of what is being paid in the private sector. If Members want people who can examine tight situations within several different industries to join the agency, they should note this will not be done by paying generalists. I use the latter term to refer to people without qualifications. While such people may be highly committed and so on, one must be able to recruit professional support and expertise when needed, which entails paying the market rates. This agency will not operate successfully if it is told otherwise by the Department of Finance.

The chief executive will be paid at the first point on the pay scale of the grade of assistant secretary within the general Departments of State. I guarantee this will be the first question to arise and I guarantee it will restrict the level of people who can be recruited into this market. Why does the Department of Finance always do this? It pertains to some internal structures that no one else understands. This constitutes another problem.

As for dealing with issues, Members respond politically to issues pertaining to the consumer. For example, members should consider briefly the groceries order. I spoke in this House on the groceries order a number of times. I also spoke on the committee that dealt with it, on which Senator Coghlan and I both served. My view was that the Minister had no choice and made the correct political decision in abolishing the groceries order. I also stated it would make not one whit of a difference to prices which would go up and down as they always did. It has not really changed matters. Certain prices were decreasing before the groceries order was introduced and others were not.

Prices in Ireland are not as bad as politicians state they are. Every time I travel abroad I check the cost of certain items common to countries, including a ten-mile or 15 km taxi ride and a box of Mach 3 razor blades. This country is not as overpriced as we are led to believe. We need a certain element of support to ensure people are paid fair prices.

Today, the issue was raised of the filling station on the quays at Usher's Quay. I used it twice during the past year because I was stuck. I am sure other people do the same. Just because newspapers hold the view that Departments and the Garda Síochána fill up their cars there does not mean they pay €1.35 per litre. The way it was covered in the newspapers last week is grossly unfair to those bodies. It is the only place one can fill up in town. I presume it was tendered and they obtain it at a competitive price. Otherwise, someone should be sacked. I cannot believe anyone in the Garda Síochána or the Health Service Executive is stupid enough to pay €1.35 for a litre of diesel or petrol.

I wish the national consumer agency well. It can be a great success. I will finish with the same point with which I began. It will only be a success if it can recruit at private sector rates and is provided with enough of a budget to do so. The Department of Finance must be told if it does not provide a budget, it will undermine the political direction determined by the Oireachtas. The agency must also have sufficient staff. How many staff are foreseen? When will it receive money and staffing and when will it be operational? I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Killeen, to the House.