Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

I counsel Members of this House to go down the first route of considering management of the force, with which I have no problem, being done by a board meeting weekly and getting on with its task of collective responsibility. I have a real problem with a body modelled on the HSE running the Garda Síochána.

The Garda Síochána operates as the security service of the State and it could not be the case that a Government, in any democracy, could say its security function is carried out by a group of people over whom it had no day to day control, accountability or chain of command. It would be total folly and completely wrong to vest control of the security service in a body independent of the executive arm of State. No society I know of has ever attempted to do that and I have never heard anyone suggest such a step would make sense. I have noticed how often that issue is side-stepped.

I will say as often as necessary that I favour a management board system for the Garda Síochána. It should not be a pyramid which ends up with the lonely person described by Senator Maurice Hayes, the Commissioner. He is in a lonely position where two pyramids intersect, one of which he is atop and the other at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Managing a serious organisation of 14,000 or 15,000 people plus civilian staff requires a different system of governance. I have no problem with that.

I have a problem with creating a Health Service Executive-type situation. In the other House and frequently in this House, pandemonium ensues every time my colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, must state, "This is a decision for the HSE." If I were to divest my role and that of these Houses on policing to a body nominally independent of us, such as the HSE, equal pandemonium would ensue. People use the phrase, "an independent police authority". Of whom is it independent? Is it of these Houses? I do not accept that.

The Garda Síochána manages our border control system. As Minister for the interior in European terms, I must be in direct contact with and have direct control of those who manage entry to and exit from Ireland. The Garda National Immigration Bureau must be directly amenable to me. I could not have a situation where a group of other people made policy decisions or significant decisions with policy implications when I am responsible for that area on behalf of the people.

Just as governance issues arise in the dealings of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform with the Garda Síochána, they also arise in the relationship between the Garda Síochána and the Houses of the Oireachtas. The time has come for the establishment of a joint committee of the Oireachtas on policing and security. I spoke to the Taoiseach about this. We do not need to wait for a general election. We can establish it now and have a committee to which the Commissioner is regularly accountable under the new Act. It will go a long way to producing genuine democratic oversight.

The Oireachtas is the policing authority for Ireland. It would be a sad day if I were able to state in the Dáil or in this House that I could not answer a question or explain a situation because a group of eight or ten people independent of my office made a decision and I could do nothing about it.

A constant barrage of people argue for the proposition that the Executive should divest itself of responsibilities. This is not the constitutional framework the people voted for in 1937. The powers of Government exist and the executive powers of the State are supposed to be executed by people answerable to the Oireachtas, particularly Dáil Éireann. That is the way it is. I ask this House, especially Senator Cummins, to seek common ground with me on the question of a board of management but not a HSE-type solution.