David Norris (Independent)

I know it was, but the Minister has already used the Goebbels analogy so I thought he might like another little smear and Himmler is more suited to Senator Cummins as he has glasses.

It is most unfortunate that people would play politics with these numbers because they are approximately correct. It would be fair enough if there was a real problem. That is partly due to the Garda reserve, etc. I welcome that fact. I compliment the Minister, to whom I am not always complimentary, on facing down a mini-revolt in the Garda by sticking to his position. He said he was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that he was introducing this measure which was done democratically and passed by the Oireachtas and all the rest of it, and that was it and eventually it was accepted. The Minister won. That was a good day for democracy. The experience of other police forces, including on the neighbouring island, has shown that while it is not a replacement for the police, a reserve force can help.

I approve of civilianising the police force. It is idiotic to have qualified policemen and women answering telephones, typing letters and manning computers. I accept there are times when this is necessary but no garda should be exclusively pinioned into this position. I welcome the recommendation that a civilian should be appointed at deputy Garda Commissioner level dealing with administration and human resource management. That is very good and I would like to see as much replacement as possible of gardaí engaged in office work. I commend those responsible for the report and I commend the Minister because it appears he is going to take the recommendations on board.

I have here an article which actually approves of this as it states that it allows secretaries, receptionists, analysts, senior crime officers, financial personnel and anything else that is appropriate to be made up of civilians. It goes on to state that this is one of the most difficult areas to bring about in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I would not be surprised if it was my colleague over there who forged this because he or somebody has come up with the very happy phrase, "Many police officers do not mind being in the comfort and warmth of the barracks rather than out on the streets." One can understand that and empathise with the human situation, but when faced with the difficulties with which we are faced, I do not think we can take as a major consideration the comfort, the warmth and security of the barracks as opposed to how hot and cold the weather is out on the streets.

Both the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, have been involved in the establishment of joint policing committees. On Monday last I attended my first meeting of the central sub-committee of the joint policing committee in Store Street Garda station, having volunteered to do so. It was extremely useful. It was entertaining in some ways to see a representative of Sinn Féin chairing it and sitting next to a chief inspector. I rather enjoyed that and it shows we have travelled a certain distance. The matters that come under review are very ordinary and humble matters such as litter, vandalism, anti-social behaviour, public drunkenness and so on.