Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)

I was following this debate from my office and I was fascinated by some of it. I put a question informally to the Minister of State yesterday, which I want to repeat today in the Seanad. I have been getting a number of letters from people who I would respect very much, such as those who are involved in retired nursing associations. There is a very strong rumour currently doing the rounds that older people will have to sell their homes if they are to receive a subvention. I want the answer from the Minister of State, even though I know it myself. This may be a scourge of a Bill that will impose draconian measures on older people, such as forcing them to sell their homes in order to obtain a subvention.

I never met a person or a family who had to sell their home, so this may be a wicked rumour. However, I want to receive a definitive answer from the Minister of State. People in the community are scared because they have heard some of these stories. Most people want to stay in their own homes and the home care packages announced in the budget yesterday, and by the Minister for Health and Children this morning, will be very good for people. The home care packages enable people to receive care, whether through nursing hours, home help hours and hospice hours at a later stage.

When these measures are codified they will help elderly people in need of care, but we need to put a shape on it. When elderly people apply to the county council for necessary supports, there seems to be no co-ordination between them, the county council and the employee from the HSE who must validate the applications for supports, such as lifts on a stairs, downstairs bathroom, toilet and so on. I thought these should be part of the home care package. Perhaps the Minister of State might consider whether they could be part of the home care package, working with the county councils, because they are very important. I know of a person in Ballymore, a rural area, who cannot come out of the hospital in Mullingar because the works needed on his house have not been done. He could come out in the morning if the works, for which there is sanction from the county council, could be done. A home care package that does not include that aspect is a waste. Perhaps the Minister of State might deal with that issue in his reply.

I would be obliged, too, if the Minister of State would clarify the position about people having to sell their homes to pay for their stay in nursing homes. I welcome that there is no difference between public and private care because I heard the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, talking about this when she opened a private nursing home in Athlone. She said that if there were beds available in that nursing home and people needed care, the Health Service Executive would underpin this by funding. This is always a fraught issue. Everyone who watches a television documentary, reads a report in the newspaper or hears about it on the radio is aware that they will probably reach that age at some stage and they wonder whether they will be looked after and properly cared for. Is due regard given to the elderly in society?

We can hark back nostalgically and talk about what the norms were long ago, uair amháin in rural Ireland, where every family had grandparents at the hearth in the family home. They were well looked after and provided an interesting level of societal observation for young people. The children could see that there were stages in family lives, grandparents, their own parents and siblings in the same household. That seemed very natural, and in that way many old people came to die under their own roofs, all of which was entirely admirable. We can look back with nostalgia and sigh for the passing of that era. It is rare enough these days, except perhaps in parts of rural Ireland where one can find such an arrangement.

In the event, it is wonderful to see because the voice of sagacity and age is listened to when advice is needed. It is not that the older people are just condoned. They are loved for their own sake and have a valuable role to play in the family environment. However the complexities of life, combined with the fact that two parents may be out working, etc. does not add up to a quasi-nursing environment for the older person and means that type of arrangement is slipping away, which is a pity.

The Minister of State's speech listed all the changes to various clauses in earlier Acts, new legislation and so on, which are all indicators of change. Leas Cross arrested us all in our tracks when we saw what had happened there and the brutality exercised on older people. We talk about brutality and young people, but it is especially sad in the case of the elderly because they are not able to defend themselves. When the Minister of State does the House the honour of replying, I trust he will be able to answer my questions.