Joe O'Toole (Independent)

The point raised by Senator Brian Hayes on mandatory sentencing is important because it goes to the core of the separation of powers principle. I voted for the legislation and two similar Bills when they were before the House, but each time I raised with the relevant Ministers whether mandatory sentences were unconstitutional owing to the separation of powers. The Judiciary is supposed to act in judgment and we, as legislators, cannot determine mandatory sentences. Otherwise, we would not need a court system to make judgments.

Nonetheless, Senator Brian Hayes has made a very important point and people elsewhere are making the same point. There should be an understanding of why we find ourselves where we are. Every time we pass mandatory sentencing legislation, we are telling the population that we are great in deciding on mandatory sentences and now it is over to the crowd in the courts. However, the Oireachtas will be found wanting the day the constitutionality of a mandatory sentence is tested in the Supreme Court.

The important issue of explanations raised by Senator Brian Hayes and which has been dealt with elsewhere recently should be examined to see whether it would be possible to have judges explain why certain sentences were given. We will find that we have not got the other issue right. Time will tell, but the matter needs airing, to be addressed and to be debated publicly.

A number of times, we have debated the importance of town centres and how small shops are part of the community and provide services. In the past two years, we have had many debates on the groceries order, which has come and gone. Recently, I spoke to a person in the business of selling books, CDs and DVDs in a provincial town. He told me that he had effectively been closed down as a book shop because whenever there is a decent book on the market, Tesco or Dunnes Stores — he mentioned them in particular — will sell it at below cost price. When I met him again, he told me that the situation was worse this year and I asked him to give me an example. He was selling the "The Best of U2" CD, which cost him as a retailer €16.33, including VAT, but the CD was on sale down the road in Tesco for €13.90. Similarly, the "Pirates of the Caribbean" DVD is on sale in Tesco for €24.90, but it cost him €25.35.

I am in favour of competition and we are all in favour of people getting the best services, but we are putting many small businesses out of business. We should examine the matter so that town centres can have life in them and people in urban areas and villages can get a service. I would welcome a discussion with the appropriate Minister.