John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)

I thank Senators on all sides of the House for their contributions to tonight's debate. I am delighted we held a debate on stamp duty, despite the fact that the Government's amendment makes no mention of the issue. We have had a full and frank exchange of views which has allowed us to expose the differences that exist between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats on stamp duty.

Why did the Government consider it necessary to table an amendment which did not address stamp duty? The majority of the amendment was devoted to the issue of income tax and only in its last line was reference made to people who wanted to buy houses. The Minister of State took 30 minutes to deliver a four and a half page speech, four pages of which were concerned with income tax. He will have plenty of time during next week's Budget Statement to say what he wishes on the issue. The Minister for Finance, who knows a little more about income tax, spoke on it last week during our debate on the Estimates. However, why is it that, when we want a full and frank exchange of views on stamp duty, the Government ends up talking about income tax? I am unsure whether the Government, under the rules of the House, is allowed to change the subject of the motion we were supposed to be debating so completely. Perhaps that should be taken up by other authorities to change the rules under which the House operates.

In Senator Mansergh's remarks, he referred to our not being able to afford to meddle in the property market. The Government has done so consistently, each time digging us into a deeper hole regarding housing costs. Whether it was the abolition of the first-time buyer's grant or the changes made a few years ago regarding stamp duty, immediately afterwards the price of the average two-bedroom house in this city increased to the exemption limit. It happened virtually the day after the Minister announced the changes in the other House and we debated them in this.

In Senator Minihan's contribution, he stated that he supported the Fine Gael motion, although I suspect he will not do so when it comes to the division. He spoke of a need for stability in the property market, and if one talks to the proverbial dogs in the street, the auctioneers and those currently seeking to buy, they will tell one that the current instability in the market was caused by the Tánaiste's September remarks. The blame lies solely at his door, and the Government has a brass neck talking about a need for stability in the market. As soon as the Tánaiste gets a microphone in front of his face, he mouths off about his views on stamp duty.

Senator Kitt made a good contribution, but he also stated his belief that the first-time buyer's grant was of no benefit to the group in question. I would like him to explain that to people trying to buy a house in Galway, given current property prices in the city. Senator Leyden almost but not quite reiterated his explanation to the House that somehow, once the first-time buyer's grant had been removed, there was a knock-on benefit for that group. We did not see a fall in the price being charged to them because developers suddenly noticed that the Government had abolished the grant and realised they could no longer charge €4,500 extra. It had no positive effect whatsoever. It was quite negative, since the grant was often used by first-time buyers to fit out their houses, perhaps to get the kitchens done or buy furniture after the purchase.

I have already mentioned the Minister's contribution, but he stood before us and spoke of how well the property market was working. There are many categories of people in this city and throughout the country who can no longer afford to buy a house but who could have done so ten years ago. Regardless of some people's reservations regarding the use of average prices, the fact remains that in this city in 1996, when Fine Gael was last in Government, one could buy an average house for €80,000. Now the figure is €424,000, and that is the biggest indictment of this Government as we approach the general election.

Senator Leyden's contribution was the most measured I have heard him deliver in the four and a half years that I have sat in this House. He acknowledged a serious problem, which he claimed the Government was considering. However, it has spent ten years doing that. We had Bacon reports coming out of our ears for the first few years, but we are still told the Government is considering the problem. Surely that time is now long past.

The Fine Gael policy is clear. We are in favour of radical alterations to the system regarding first-time buyers. As Senator Bannon said, we are in favour of an SSIA-type scheme for those hoping to provide themselves with a first house. We are clearly in favour of a significant reduction in stamp duty for first-time buyers.

We are also quite clear that there must be an examination of older people in large properties who wish to trade down but are faced by the barrier of stamp duty, for which there is no longer any excuse. In this city in particular, there are settled older communities that have the local infrastructure of schools, post offices and corner shops. Often there is only one person in the house, and those schools, post offices and shops are being closed. In the meantime we are building concrete jungles in Meath, Kildare, Wicklow and Louth for people because houses in settled communities in Dublin do not come on the market regularly enough. It is clear we must focus afresh on that situation before the budget.

I ask Senators on all sides to consider the motion. The amendment clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with it, and I appeal in particular to members of the Progressive Democrats, who have a policy position on this, to support the motion. We do not ask that the Government publish State secrets or give notice of what next Wednesday's budget contains. However, we request that it conduct a serious and genuine examination of the significant problem that stamp duty poses, especially to those hoping to buy their first homes.