David Norris (Independent)

I welcome the Minister and I am pleased that another significant piece of legislation has been introduced first in the Seanad. This is good because the Seanad should be used to examine, generally in a non-partisan way, Government legislative proposals. From reading the explanatory memorandum and other material this Bill has two principal purposes. The first is to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to contract out prisoner escort services. There has been a problem with this over the years. It has used many Garda resources that could have been more profitably engaged in other areas. It also brings up the way the banks use the services of the State to escort their money, which has been examined in the past couple of years and which is a less worthy use of Garda and Army resources. The second purpose of the Bill is to use pre-trial hearings in which people can be interviewed on video.

Both purposes of the Bill have certain aspects to recommend them. My only hesitation is that I do not like franchising out tasks too much. We have a regrettable tendency to follow America in many respects, both good and bad, often in an unthinking fashion. America has franchised out the entire prison service, which has led to a considerable degree of brutality and confusion, which I deplore. The principal motive for people engaging in this is not the service of the community or the welfare of the State but profit. While there may be a practical argument for moving in this direction one must be careful that the profit motive does not dominate.

I welcome the fact that section 3 requires the Minister or his representatives to provide certification that people employed in this are fit and proper persons so to do, that this can be reviewed and that such validation lasts for five years and can be revoked by the Minister. The principal difficulty with the pre-trial hearings that has been drawn to my attention is the matter of definition. I wonder if the Minister will re-examine this and provide a definition of a pre-trial hearing or explain to the House whether or how he feels it is satisfactorily defined in the legislation. If we are to have it, we must be clear on what constitutes a pre-trial hearing and what does not.

Also envisaged in this Bill are strict planning rules for new jails. I want to address the subject of Thornton Hall. I will not re-open the question of the purchase, which has been extensively ventilated in both Houses of the Oireachtas and the media, because it appears to be a done deal. However, the fact that the Central Mental Hospital is to be relocated to the grounds to Thornton Hall is a serious cause of concern for many people. I am sure the Minister has come under pressure from the relatives. He is shaking his head. That is very interesting. I have, and I wish to pass on some of the pressure to him. Relatives of inmates, representatives of groups such as Schizophrenia Ireland, doctors and constituents have expressed considerable concern about this. I welcome the fact that Deputy Tim O'Malley, party and Government colleague of the Minister, recognised early in his tenure the unsatisfactory nature of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum. He pledged to close it and I salute him for taking this honourable position. It is a good thing to close the Central Mental Hospital.

I remember it when it was called the Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum. An advertisement that made a joke of this had to be withdrawn from Irish television in the not too distant past as a result of complaints by relatives. If the Advertising Standards Authority is prepared to remove an advertisement on the basis that it creates an unfair stigma to refer to the original name, the Central Criminal Lunatic Hospital, we have to be careful about associating a prison and a mental hospital. Some of those incarcerated are there because of actions — perhaps violent actions — taken in pursuit of deluded notions. Schizophrenia, for example, can lead to delusions where sufferers believe they are being attacked and are the prey of sinister forces. To those outside the mental world, their behaviour seems extraordinarily dangerous and threatening, as indeed it is.

Some 35% of inmates of the Central Mental Hospital have never been charged with any crime. The remaining 65% of inmates may have committed acts under the influence of mental illness as a result of delusion. Dr. Paul O'Connell, a consultant at the Central Mental Hospital, has stated that the patients he works with are those who, by nature of having a severe mental illness, fall foul of the law, perhaps by committing a violent offence in response to a delusion, and that all Western societies recognise that when an offence of this kind occurs as a product of mental illness, hospital treatment rather than imprisonment is the civilised response.

I return to the determination of the Minister of State to close the Central Mental Hospital, which I have applauded. He is also on record as saying that locating the revamped Central Mental Hospital within the grounds of Thornton Hall is not an ideal situation. He said, "I accept that in an ideal world it would be better not to have it near a prison but we do not live in an ideal world." We do, however, live in a State with plenty of resources and it is not necessary to build the hospital there. It is convenient and saves a certain amount of money.

There is an extensive site in Dundrum. What are the plans for this site? Will it be sold to generate further capital for the Exchequer? Why is it not considered appropriate to redevelop the hospital on this site, where it has been and where the local community accepts it? The grounds are an attractive retreat for those who suffer from mental illness. The proposed move will create considerable disturbance to the residents and their relatives. Dundrum is reasonably accessible from all parts of Dublin by bus, train and Luas. Thornton Hall is not, despite the proposed system of shuttle buses. It is a pity that the decision appears to have been taken. A spokesperson for the relatives and carers group describes the decision to combine a mental hospital and a prison as "warehousing" patients. I hope this matter can be reconsidered.