Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)

I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on this Bill and I welcome the Tánaiste to the House. This is a period of considerable opportunity for the prison system for a number of reasons, such as the welcome additional funding that can modernise the number of prisons within this jurisdiction. Another glaring reason I have come to this conclusion is that the very substantial subversive threat posed to this State since its inception is now dwindling, and although it has not been completely eliminated, it is virtually gone. Over the period of time since independence, a substantial number of the prison population incarcerated for all kinds of reasons was directly related to subversive organisations. As those organisations have now accepted the legality and legitimacy of the State, we now have more space for people who should be in prison.

In that context, it still irks me to see those responsible for very serious crimes in this State, most notably the manslaughter of Detective Jerry McCabe, operate their own regime, effectively an open prison. I am glad to say they remain in prison despite the Government's U-turn on the matter. However, they decide what they eat and when they want to eat it. The Government should not send such a signal through such people, that in effect they can decide what they want to do when they so wish. Our prison service should not be run like that and nobody should have a carte blanche approach to the operation of prisons, even if they are in a special category. The individuals to whom I am referring clearly think of themselves in that way, as do their political masters in the other House.

It is worth noting one of the great achievements of Éamon de Valera when he was Taoiseach. He did exactly what Margaret Thatcher did in 1981 in refusing to accept the political status of hunger-strike prisoners in the North, which led to three of them dying in the 1940s. The great statesman that he was, he recognised the importance of not undermining the State by allowing any group to decide its own rules and conditions in prisons. This is a very important principle which de Valera set out, which Thatcher followed and to which all Administrations in this country have adhered since the foundation of the State. I see it as an opportunity that those persons who had previously represented large proportions of our prison population are no longer there.

One of the most depressing experiences I have had to go through was an opportunity to visit Mountjoy Prison when I was asked to participate in an Open University course which some prisoners were taking. When I finished my contribution after an hour or two and left the training centre, 15 men were lined up to see me, all of whom came from my constituency. It was like a virtual prison clinic, and all the men were asking questions about their family at home or if I would make representations for a girlfriend, partner etc.

We need a very strong and independent voice within the prison system which is prepared to highlight awkward issues from time to time. The Minister's relationship with Mr. Justice Kinlan may not be the best because of his very blunt and independent comments on the prison system from time to time, but there is a need for such independence of mind and people within the system who are prepared to say awkward things to the Government and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in particular.

I welcome that the Minister is now putting the prisons inspectorate on a statutory footing and that reports to be given to the Government from the inspectorate are to be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. There is a responsibility on the Government to publish such reports as soon as possible. From reading the legislation, I understand there is no time limit on when the Minister must publish a report coming from the prison inspectorate. That is wrong, and we should consider amending it on Committee Stage of this Bill.

Previously, Ministers with the Justice portfolio have been determined to publish reports at their own political choosing, and that is wrong. If we are putting this on a statutory footing, which I welcome, we should use the opportunity to lay down a guideline or strict rule as to when that report will be published. It is the possession of the Oireachtas rather than the Government of the day.

The Human Rights Commission recently put forward the view that with regard to people coming before it on the issue of leaving prison, the matter should be referred to an independent third party or judicial system. I do not accept that and I agree with the Minister. It is always proper for the Government to refuse to grant a release for an individual, for whatever reason. The power should remain squarely with the Government, as there are always reasons the good judgment of the Government would require persons to remain in prison, irrespective of what others might say. The Minister is correct in taking a different view from that of the Human Rights Commission and I am interested in his views on the matter.

Prisons are places where serious criminals need to go for a period of time and it must be ensured their prison sentence is upheld. There have been examples of persons committed to prison for non-payment of fines. This should be regarded as a last resort because prisons are places for serious criminals and not places for people who have not paid small fines. The prison system should be safely guarded and kept for those who require it.

I listened to the comments of the previous speaker about the prisoner escort system. I share his concerns that the Bill allows for the part-privatisation of the prisoner escort system. I presume significant sums of money will be saved if this option is adopted. The Bill provides that the Minister will be required to certify companies for this service. This is a sensitive and fundamental issue and we should tread warily and carefully before going down the road of allowing this part-privatisation to emerge. There are many examples in other jurisdictions where this system has failed, where there is no accountability and where ultimately the system has been the subject of ridicule because those private operators have neither the experience nor the expertise to introduce the service. There are some areas in which the State should be mindful of looking after services and the prisoner escort service is one of them.

On the question of prison construction, the Minister has made a recent announcement about Cork and I welcome that decision. There needs to be some role for some kind of independent view involved in the planning of a prison programme as this does not exist currently. The Fine Gael spokesperson on justice has put forward some strong opinions on this issue, particularly with regard to Part 4 which may need to be revisited on Committee Stage to decide whether the Bill provides the kind of due regard and observance of the views of others when dealing with the location of a prison in an area. I concede that these are very difficult decisions. However, I refer to the unique example of Castlerea, County Roscommon where Senator Leyden will agree the community was more than happy to take a prison. It is more difficult to reach an agreement in a larger urban setting.

The Bill deals with drugs-free regimes in prisons. Mountjoy Prison has one drugs-free wing. In my constituency I have seen extraordinary results from methadone programmes. They may not work for everyone but they are successful in some circumstances. I would be interested to hear of the experience of the Irish prison system with regard to this regime.

Many people in prisons lead chaotic and difficult lives. They are in prison because of the circumstances of their lives and their environment. We must ensure that when a person leaves prison, they have some social equipment to deal with the life ahead of them. People often remain in the cycle of crime. We have a responsibility to rehabilitate prisoners and to ensure they return to the community with some element of stability. Too often people who leave prisons are back within a short time because nothing is in place for them and their chaotic lives cannot be changed. We have a responsibility to use the regimes of drugs-free and methadone to replace what has failed in other areas and I urge the Government and the prison authorities to consider this option.